Episode 100! Featuring Jonathan Karl of ABC News & Author of "Retribution: Donald Trump and the Campaign the Changed America"

00:01

Jon Karl

Hey, this is Jonathan Karl, chief Washington correspondent for ABC News and author of Donald Trump and the Campaign that Changed America. And this is the 100th episode of the Sports Business Conversations podcast from ABC Partners.

00:25

Dave Almy

Hey, this is Dave Almy, and welcome to this, the 100th episode of the Sports Business Conversations podcast. And look, I realize that in the grand scheme of things, making it to 100 podcast episodes isn't exactly up there with stupendous human achievements like landing on the moon, writing Hamlet, or inventing bourbon and thank you, Elijah Craig. But it's something worth celebrating a little bit, for sure. And frankly, I thought long and hard about who I wanted to feature on this momentous episode. For a while, I thought I wanted to try and chase down one of the white whales of sports business, like NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell or someone like that, but everybody hears from them all the time, and frankly, their PR people really won't let them say anything all that interesting.

01:14

Dave Almy

into our dorm room in the mid-: 1980

02:07

Dave Almy

His latest book, Donald Trump and the Campaign that Changed America, builds upon the first three books and reflects John's extensive personal history of reporting on the President. And somehow he manages to do so in the objective manner that has always been the cornerstone of his reporting. No matter how you feel about Donald Trump and this political moment, I think you'll find our conversation interesting, informative, and revealing. And if you're thinking, hey, Dave, this doesn't have anything to do with sports, you can stop right there. As Seattle Seahawks hall of famer and former U.S. house of Representatives Steve Largent once remarked, they say politics is a contact sport, and I have to agree with that. You can agree with that, too.

02:52

Dave Almy

So thanks for listening in on this, the 100th episode of Sports Business Conversations, and hope you enjoy my conversation With Jonathan Karl, my college roommate and author of Retribution, Donald Trump and the Campaign that Changed America.

03:08

Jon Karl

This is history.

03:09

Dave Almy

This is history. And you know why I chose this too, right? Because I was thinking it's the 100th episode. Yeah, right. I mean, what do I do? Do I like. Do I like, go after like the. The white whale of sports, like the Roger Goodells or the, you know, like, you know, the guy in charge of FIFA, Giancarlo, whatever his name is. It's like, you know, everybody's heard from them.

03:30

Jon Karl

Yeah, right.

03:30

Dave Almy

So what we want, what I decided.

03:32

Jon Karl

To do, I mean, do you want LeBron James? Do you want Brady?

03:36

Dave Almy

These people have been heard from, John. But what we needed to do first,.

03:41

Jon Karl

I mean, come on, you don't. Who wants.

03:43

Dave Almy

We don't need to do that. But what we need to do is go back to the origin story, John, because my audio history begins with you.

03:51

Jon Karl

Yeah, that's true. We were actually in the business together.

03:54

Dave Almy

attend Vassar College in the: 1990

04:05

Jon Karl

I mean, I think basically everybody already knows this. What do you mean?

04:07

Dave Almy

For those who don't know, were actually a multimedia environment. Because if you think about, between the two of us, we had the DJ business. You were editing the Vassar Spectator, you were on Vassar College television, and I was editing the sports pages for the miscellaneous news. So between the two of us, I mean, it was inevitable that media was going to be in our futures. Yours to a somewhat greater degree than mine.

04:35

Jon Karl

I mean, everybody remembers, I'm sure. I had a. I think it was on from 1 in the morning till 3 in the morning radio show on WVKR.

04:44

Dave Almy

I neglected that one. I'm embarrassed.

04:46

Jon Karl

And it was. And it was. I had a psychedelic music show and I don't. I mean, this. I'm sure this is. I hate to be recounting stuff that everybody. Yeah, but you were one of the very first people who called into my.

04:59

Dave Almy

John. Don't, don't. Don't sell me short. I believe I was the only person who may have called in one to three o' clock hour.

05:07

Jon Karl

And you called with a request. And just to show you that I have no memory issues here, the. I remember the song you requested at. At roughly 1:45am.

05:20

Dave Almy

Was it like Inata Deita or something like that?

05:24

Jon Karl

No, it was the Beatles. I'm so tired and you. I. And I played it putting everybody that was listening all like 12 or 13 people.

05:33

Dave Almy

I was still unfamiliar with the importance of audio audience growth at that time, John. But you know what? It's. It's.

05:39

Jon Karl

Yeah, it was a.

05:40

Dave Almy

It speaks dialogue that you and I have always had around audio and going back to those days. But I, you know, we're going to fast forward now because, you know, we're both in. We're both in different industries. You know, I play in this sports business world, you play in politics, and I think, you know, it's fair to say. Actually, I was speaking to Alex Lasry, who is running the World cup program up in New York, New Jersey, and he once had a Senate campaign up in the state of Wisconsin, and he talked about sports and politics sort of being equally competitive. So there is some overlap, John, between our two industries, of which you've been reporting on now for. On the political side for over 30 years now. Yeah, yeah.

06:25

Dave Almy

Most recently as a chief Washington correspondent for ABC News and the author of not one, not two, but three books about the current president.

06:37

Jon Karl

Four.

06:37

Dave Almy

Four books. Oh, my God. I got to talk to my research assistants. Four, four.

06:43

Jon Karl

I mean, I mean, it's like.

06:44

Dave Almy

I mean, my God, John, that's a lot of content about. It's a lot about the current president. So before we started getting into the books itself, I'm interested in, from a process standpoint, like, was writing the Fourth different than writing the previous three? I mean, how did your approach change to writing Retribution than from the previous ones you've written?

07:10

Jon Karl

So I had been thinking about writing a book for many years, and these jobs are massively busy, and I just never got to the point. And I was covering the Trump White House, which is, this is the first term. I mean, my God, you cannot just. I mean, it is. There's barely time to sleep. All the attention is on what's happening.

07:34

Dave Almy

News comes out of this White House fast.

07:37

Jon Karl

s. And I set out in basically: 2019

08:24

Jon Karl

ven I started that journal in: 1988

08:29

Dave Almy

I imagine taking a look across the room and say, what has my life come to?

08:33

Jon Karl

Yeah, yeah. And. And, but. But those journals were. Were raw material. I worked, you know, from the White House. We have. ABC has got a little booth at the White House. I share it with three other people. It's very loud and chaotic environment. Put earbuds in so I can tune out. I've got like an hour. And I would be writing, and I would write late at night, right early when I get up in the morning, but I don't know how I did that. But do you look back?

08:56

Dave Almy

Is it like a blur? Is it like a fugue state you feel like you were in?

08:59

Jon Karl

I mean, it was insane because I'd never been busier. I mean, I'm busy now, but I'm not busy in the way that was.

09:06

Dave Almy

And so does the fourth book. Then you have more of a measured approach. Are you out of the fugue state? And more. You can be more measured because you have a better sense of the path of the story at this point. Or has it been sort of equally crazy?

09:21

Jon Karl

The books are in dialogue with each other. I mean, it is very much. Even though I never intended to write more than one. You may recall my second book was subtitled Donald Trump and the End of the Trump show said then, oops, you.

09:35

Dave Almy

Know, gotta talk to Mark.

09:36

Jon Karl

And then the third book was called Donald Trump and the, you know, the End of the Grand Old Party or something. I keep trying to end this thing, so. But. But they build on. They go back and forth each other. This fourth book, in some ways, was the most challenging of them all, because it wasn't just about Trump. It wasn't just about my experience in the White House. It wasn't just about Trump's exile in Mar a Lago, which is what my third book was really about. It was about a presidential campaign unlike any that we've ever seen in American history and certainly have ever seen in our lifetimes.

10:16

Jon Karl

You know, a Shakespearean drama surrounding the president of the United States, Joe Biden and his demise, this rise and fall of Kamala Harris, and then the absolute insanity of a campaign that starts with Donald Trump being indicted on 34 felony counts and facing, I mean, not convicted on 34 felony counts. And then facing indictments in two federal cases and yet another, you know, state. You lose track all of this, and then he somehow comes back and recaptures the Republican nomination and somehow wins the presidency. So it was a, a story that had multiple layers to it. And as a reporting challenge was, was there was a lot that I had to work on because I had to really get to the bottom of the Biden. I mean, I'm.

11:12

Jon Karl

The parts of this book that I am really proud of, one of them is about Joe Biden. And I really think that I, because I worked my way in and got people to talk that had not really talked to anybody that were right there when it was going on. So that could have been a book in and of itself. And then it got all the Trump stuff. So it was a, it's the longest of the four books and was. Was probably strictly from kind of Manhauer's Was. Was the, was the most challenging.

11:39

Dave Almy

You opened the book by making analogy between the president elect at this time in a moment from the show Breaking Bad involving Walter White. Now, that's a pretty loaded analogy. Walter White in the President Elect. So can you recount that analogy and what you believe it reveals about this president?

12:03

Jon Karl

Okay, so you have to remember we're going back a little bit.

12:05

Dave Almy

Here we go.

12:06

Jon Karl

We're going back to the campaign because you've probably seen stories of reporters calling Donald Trump and then coming out and Trump stick. So I, this is something that didn't used to happen, but I am the one that started this thing, I'm sorry to say. Oh, God, I didn't think I was starting anything. I called Trump on his cell phone, which I had for some time but had never used. If I want to get a hold of him, I would usually call his, you know, spoke.

12:34

Dave Almy

But it's worth noting you've had interactions with him for 30 years when you.

12:38

Jon Karl

Were working at the Post.

12:39

Dave Almy

I mean, you've known him. You've known him for a long time.

12:42

Jon Karl

So. But he gets the assassination attempt in Butler happens. I call him shortly after that basically to leave a message. I didn't even think I would get turned to him. I was like, just, you know, sorry to hear what. I mean, look, I had. I mean, he freaking hated the stuff that I had written about him in the post January 6th stuff. My book Betrayal is about his efforts to overturn American democracy. I mean, it's.

13:08

Dave Almy

And you were pretty strident in that one of the three. That one's where you probably come out hardest.

13:13

Jon Karl

Yeah, yeah. And, and I, I'm trying to think if I have the other book three here. But, but, you know, book three, which is his exile, you know, I mean, also, just, even the COVID image that I used, which was him when he came back to the White House after his first rally, the Draggles almost, which was, I mean, looking just like a defeated man. And so I called him and he ended up calling me back, which really surprised me because his convention was starting,.

13:43

Dave Almy

He had just got anything else going.

13:45

Jon Karl

On, and he had just been shot. And then, you know, my phone rings and it's Trump. And I'm like, I'm kind of busy too, you know, because we got our, you know, we're about to do our special broadcast.

13:56

Dave Almy

I'll be right back to you. I got the President Elect down at.

13:59

Jon Karl

My phone and it says, Trump is on the line. And anyway, so I, during the campaign, I had started calling him pretty regularly, every few days, check in to see.

14:08

Dave Almy

If he'd have a quote, check in.

14:10

Jon Karl

Part of it was I wanted to get an interview, check in news about the campaign. It wasn't so much to get, you know, I just talked to the candidate. It wasn't like that. But, but I was continuing continuously calling him. And then the election happens. I spoke to him a couple times. I spoke to him on election day. I spoke to him the Sunday before the election, and he was pretty, like, nasty to me, actually. He didn't like the coverage because he watches all this.

14:39

Dave Almy

He does. He is a voracious consumer of television.

14:43

Jon Karl

Yeah. And he was not particularly happy. But the election happens, he wins. You have to understand, election night, you're on all night, you're doing the returns are coming in. And then eventually, I think in our case it was like 4 in the morning. We, you know, were dismissed. But then I have to prepare and I have to go down to a different studio in a different part of New York to be on Good Morning America at 7am So I called him after I got back to my hotel room at about a little before 8am Again, there's no way he's going to answer. He's just been elected president, got some.

15:17

Dave Almy

Other things concerning him.

15:18

Jon Karl

He's got a cabinet to put together. He's got like all this stuff, but I figured I'll just call and say, you know, congratulations, you did it. And he answers the phone. It just totally freaking blew me away. He sounded like he had just died, by the way. He sounded more tired, voice was very.

15:35

Dave Almy

Hoarse, kind of stuff.

15:35

Jon Karl

And I, I have a recording of this conversation and it sounds like two people that have been like just woken up from a terrible hangover. He doesn't drink, which is one of the great miracles of this whole thing. And, and I say, a Mr. President's Jonathan Carl, just calling to say congratulations. And he says, for what? For what, Jonathan? For what? I mean, I just start laughing. I'm like, what do you mean for what? You tell me. You tell me for what? And I'm like, okay, for the greatest comeback victory in the history of American politics. But it was the reason why I invoked Breaking Bad is there's that great scene. Well, Walter White, you know, Bryan Cranston's character is out in the desert meeting with these vanquished, you know, drug rivals. And he just says to him, say my name.

16:29

Dave Almy

Trump wanted, he wanted to hear you say it.

16:32

Jon Karl

He wanted to hear me say it. I mean, this is a guy that I had described as a threat to American democracy and American democracy had just handed him the keys to the White.

16:44

Dave Almy

House against all odds. I mean, it's funny too. Like you have this relationship with him and you've been in his crosshairs before. He famously called you a. I mean, don't take this personally. This is his words, John, not mine. You're a third rate reporter, John. And like he's telling people not to buy the book because it has no relationship with the truth. So I mean, it's easy to kind of laugh about because he is that sort of character, but he is also the leader of the free world. So can you, what's that moment feel like when that capacity is trained on you?

17:26

Jon Karl

Yeah, I mean, it's happened a lot. It's happened at some moments where the cameras are on and I know that, you know, the world is watching. You know, there were those briefings during COVID when There were only 14 seats occupied in the White House briefing room because social distancing. And by the way, there's nothing else like going on in the country because the country is shut down. And these things are like these primetime press conferences with the President. So everybody's watching. And it was at one of those where he called me, you know, a third rate reporter and a disgrace to the ABC News television network. And on and on. And in that case, in the third rate reporter case, it was really strange because it is so withering, it is so harsh.

18:17

Jon Karl

But I'm like in the mode, so it's not like bothering me actually. But it's like, it's intense. And he goes, and then after he yells at me, calls on a few other reporters, and I continue to raise my hand again because I have more.

18:30

Dave Almy

Questions and there's only 14 of you in the room. I mean, you know this.

18:32

Jon Karl

Yeah. So he called on me again like nothing had just happened. I mean, you know, he's like, I mean, he's like one step from saying, guards, seize that garbage and get him out. But yes, you have a gallows, Mr. Carl.

18:45

Dave Almy

Yeah, but before he goes, let's make sure he gets one more question. In he.

18:49

Jon Karl

row at the Trump Show in late: 2015

19:36

Jon Karl

And he's now down this dark hallway a little bit and he starts screaming at me again, no cameras now, because.

19:44

Dave Almy

He knows so the guardrails are down.

19:48

Jon Karl

Nasty guy. You're a walking nasty guy. And I swear, one of his dudes, like, it seems to be kind of like restraining, as if he's going to come after me. He did come back and finish the interview after the rally and was as if nothing happened. So this is like a, you know, this is kind of a thing.

20:07

Dave Almy

Is it an attempt to keep people off balance? Like, is there strategy to it or is he a victim of emotion, do you think, in that regard?

20:14

Jon Karl

I mean, I think there's a little bit of each, but it's definitely an effort to keep people off balance. And I think one of the things, I think I do have a unique relationship with him. He's gone after me so many times in front of the cameras. By the way, he has said some just really nice things about me in front of the cameras, too. It's like, and, and you're a.

20:36

Dave Almy

Second rate reporter, John.

20:37

Jon Karl

I mean, yeah, second rate. But, you know, I think that the fact that I never respond to it directly and some people criticize it. How do you take that? How don't you? Because I think if I'm up there and I'm getting in a fight with him, like verbally, if I'm like saying, how dare you call me the journalist. I' My job is to report on him and to not be, you know, in a tit for tat and making the story, you know, about me. So I, so I think oddly, he kind of like respects that moment that I'm never intimidated by you.

21:13

Dave Almy

Just kind of go about your business and do it right.

21:16

Jon Karl

But it's terrible. And he's going after my colleagues, you know, in a lot of.

21:19

Dave Almy

But I guess that's part of the question too, right? So is writing about him difficult? Right, because on the one hand there's so much out there about him and everybody's got an opinion. And so it does make for, I mean, does he makes for great. I hate the word but content. But on other hand he can be pretty tough on people that have perceived enemies and he does have the arm of the state now to kind of lend a hand here, so. Which might make getting honest assessments a little more challenging than normal. So is it hard to write about him or is it just as you would treat any other subject?

21:50

Jon Karl

I mean, I think that being a journalist in the age of Trump, a political journalist, a White House reporter, is in some ways the toughest job. Just the tonnage of it. The fact that there's such an effort by him and by his people to make you the enemy and to go after you. And in some ways it can induce a certain laziness because the story is right there for you. This is not really the case in writing the book, but in the kind of day to day journalism, if you're covering the Biden White House, there's so little in the kind of day to day operations. Most days, sometimes there's a lot. But you need to really work and be more enterprising and to chase the story a bit. Chase the story. And in this it's like choosing what am I going to fricking cover?

22:45

Jon Karl

And then you, and then you have to chase and try to figure out what you're going to get, you know, beyond what's right in front of you. But look, you know, writing the books, I felt that I've. And the reason why I decided ultimately to do that first one again, not knowing it would turn into what it has, is I knew that were covering something that People will be talking about and wondering about and thinking about and asking what the hell happened there for years and years to come. And I was in a very unique, still am in a very unique vantage point to see it all. Given the fact that I had known him for 30 years, given the fact I was the president of the White House Correspondence association as he's president and I've got to deal with him in that capacity.

23:32

Jon Karl

And given the fact that although he will lash out about at me, he'll. I mean, I've talked to him like five times in the last week. I mean, this is like, you know, it's an unusual.

23:43

Dave Almy

You have a relationship with him.

23:45

Jon Karl

It's an unusual relationship. Yeah. That's how you called me the day after the White House Correspondents Dinner.

23:51

Dave Almy

You mentioned that he did like the day after to check in on you.

23:56

Jon Karl

Yeah, I mean, that's what he said. Yeah.

23:59

Dave Almy

Just wanted to see how you're doing.

24:00

Jon Karl

At like 7 in the morning, like 7:20 in the morning or something.

24:03

Dave Almy

Again, the man does not sleep a lot.

24:07

Jon Karl

Does not sleep. Does not sleep.

24:09

Dave Almy

Does not sleep. And so his first impetus after, because again, we're recording this a couple days after the incident at the White House Correspondents association dinner of which you were there.

24:21

Jon Karl

Yeah.

24:23

Dave Almy

A pretty stressful moment. Unknown, chaotic moment. And then the President of the United States, with just a couple other things going on, calls you at seven o' clock in the morning to check in and see how you're doing. It's this really interesting dialectic with this guy. There's these two parts of him.

24:39

Jon Karl

He's a consumer of news beyond anybody. I mean like Obama and Bush or two presidents that I covered pretty extensively. Bush W. Even as a candidate when he was governor, really didn't have any desire to watch like the idea of either one of those guys sitting down and watching cable news like ever in Obama, if he had some free time, espn, you know, and, and Trump watches all these and he DVRs them. And he, and he, he.

25:13

Dave Almy

Is always managing the brand.

25:16

Jon Karl

Sunday before the election of: 2024

25:31

Dave Almy

Yeah.

25:32

Jon Karl

It's not seen by as many people as Good Morning America during the week. Okay. Not everybody's up on Sunday watching gma. They should be.

25:38

Dave Almy

That's what I, that's what I. That's what I dvr.

25:41

Jon Karl

Yes. And I called him and he had just seen me, and that's what got him in this bad mood because I had said that he was. He was talking off message and he was frustrating his own advisors because they. They've got this closing message that they want, and he's off talking about, you know, this other stuff, and he's like, john, that's not right. I. My man. And then I said, well, it's the weave, sir. It's the weave. And he says, the weave got me elected president. But. But he's watching this stuff in a way that nobody else I've ever. In a way that my good friends like Dave don't watch. My wife watches less of it. I mean, he watches it all. Yeah.

26:21

Dave Almy

He is a consumer of information. He wants. He wants to know how. I mean, you talk about it after the Butler assassination attempt. One of the first quotes was, how's it playing on television?

26:35

Jon Karl

Right.

26:35

Dave Almy

I mean, this is a man who.

26:37

Jon Karl

That's what he asks his aides as he goes into the hospital.

26:40

Dave Almy

Yeah. I mean, that is a man who is very acutely aware of how things are being perceived in a particular moment. It's also a little challenging, I would think, with this president, too, because separating what's real and what's just bs. You've talked about it in the past. He brings up casually this idea of maybe I'll just run for a third term, and people throw their hands over their heads. And you've indicated that you just think he's just trolling people to rile people up. So this has to be challenging as a reporter, because how do you. If you're chronicling this, as you said, you are in real time chronicling the legacy, how do you separate truth from troll? I mean, does he have a tell? Is it just vibes? Is it experience?

27:31

Jon Karl

How do you.

27:32

Dave Almy

When is he just fucking with people? And when does he just really have a conscious thought about something?

27:37

Jon Karl

I mean, it's really a central challenge of covering this. And look, he's the President of the United States. So even if you think he is saying something just to troll people and doesn't mean it, these are the words of a president.

27:49

Dave Almy

You can't. You can't discount them.

27:51

Jon Karl

You can't. You can't just. You can't just ignore it. So when he said, when he. When he jokes, maybe jokes, what's he. When he talks about a third term? You know, I think. I think you have an obligation to at least, you know, note, take Note and remind everybody that we have a little thing in the Constitution. We have, there's a little amendment that talks about a two term limit. These, you know, so you can't do it. Yeah. But you know, and on that. So I do think that he fully intends to leave. He's going to be a very wealthy man when he leaves the White House and I think he's going to be fine leaving. And he doesn't really think he can run for a third term. He knows he can't.

28:29

Jon Karl

But I also can't really tell you how he kind of anoints and blesses the next Republican nominee. It's going to be a very weird thing because the minute lit it, I don't know if it's JD Vance, it's Marco Rubio or if it's like, you know, God knows who. The minute there is somebody else, he's no longer the center of attention and that's going to be something he's not.

28:53

Dave Almy

Which makes me think like, I feel like this is a transactional guy.

28:57

Jon Karl

Right.

29:01

Dave Almy

That's my observation, John. So I mean, I kind of feel like from anointing process, if he's going to anoint, you know, there's gonna be a, I would assume there's gotta be some sort of quid pro quo. He's not gonna just walk away into the sunset. He's gonna want to be still perceived in the position where he's at. Right?

29:20

Jon Karl

Yeah. And it'll be very, I mean it'll be very interesting because is he, where is he in terms of popularity? His popularity right now is very low. I mean it's low by Trump standards. And he's always been a divisive figure, you know, wildly popular among his base but wildly unpopular among Democrats. And then there's that small group, you know, in the middle and he's, you know, his popularity is low. Where are we a year from now, as this next presidential campaign will be underway, you would think we'll be past the midterms. Where are we? Are we, you know, is the situation in Iran fixed? Is oil down or are we in the midst of a financial crisis? But if things are really bad, I mean there's going to be.

30:07

Jon Karl

Not only does there need, not only will there be another candidate running as a Republican, that candidate's going to have to do some distancing from Trump boy,.

30:16

Dave Almy

Which he's not right there. Because this, I mean, whatever you want to say about the man does inspire a almost cult like following like People who vote for him, or at least the people that I see reported in the news, there is a attachment to him that almost defies explanation. What do you think he understands about campaigning in this age, in this time? Because you've been with presidential campaigns now for over 25 years, right? You've seen them evolve. You have a perspective of history, having been close to them. So what does he get about campaigning now that other people might be only just becoming aware of?

30:59

Jon Karl

I mean, he's managed to, to inspire that fervent following by, you know, portraying himself as this super rich and successful guy that doesn't need to be president, that doesn't need anything. And he's doing it because, you know, he's gonna do it for America. I mean, you may, all the people that hate Trump, they're going to say, oh, give me a break. But, but this is what those supporters see in him. And they think he's not beholden to the Republican Party, he's not beholden to the Democratic Party. He's not beholden to anything because he's this guy that's just, you know, going to do for America what he did for himself. Now that they gloss over the six bankruptcies and everything else. Yeah, yeah, never mind. And, you know, and he's always known, you need to kind of keep it interesting and keep people guessing.

31:56

Jon Karl

lary Clinton event in Iowa in: 2016

32:45

Jon Karl

And Hillary Clinton has, like, she's running her campaign and it's, you know, she's clearly the front runner for the Democratic nomination. And she did get you. She'd get it. And, but she hasn't done a press conference in a thousand years. She hasn't done any interviews.

33:01

Dave Almy

No need.

33:01

Jon Karl

Totally, you know, the same speech, the same message. And I go down to the, you know, the rope line where people are waiting to shake hands and meet her. And I go right there in the middle. I've, like, waited. So I. And I got my camera behind me. I'm going to, like, ask her the question. I forget what the big story at that moment was. And she, like, looks at the person on this side of me, shakes hands is good. And then the person and just totally.

33:29

Dave Almy

Just invisibility, I think.

33:30

Jon Karl

I asked the question like, 17 times, and she successfully ignored it. And Jeb Bush was the same way. Jeb Bush was, you know, very rare that he would subject himself to. To questions. Didn't want to get thrown off message. That was the way you did it. You were the front runner. You want to be disciplined on message. Heat over and over again, your message so people know what you stand for. And Trump's out there, you know, talking to anybody, doing everything, throwing the speeches out. So I. And by the way, Kamala Harris did the same damn thing when she takes over for Biden. You know, she is very much on message, gives some very. Some of the best speeches she ever gave, but is avoiding any serious interviews, doing very precious few questions answered.

34:19

Jon Karl

And then towards the end, she's trying, realizing that didn't work, and she's begging to get on Joe Rogan, and she's trying to do stuff.

34:26

Dave Almy

But so is it like a. I mean, say what you want. Right. Trump at least shows you who he is.

34:33

Jon Karl

Yeah, right.

34:34

Dave Almy

Everybody else is packaged as a candidate with their advisors, and it's. There's no. Just use so much in marketing now. There's no way to get to the authentic person.

34:45

Jon Karl

Yeah.

34:46

Dave Almy

There's no authenticity. If you're.

34:47

Jon Karl

You're.

34:47

Dave Almy

Okay, well, that's a political candidate. They're saying whatever they want. Trump is saying crazy stuff, but at least I know that's. That crazy stuff is who the man is versus whatever the hell that packaged operation.

35:00

Jon Karl

I mean, the impression that he gives, and you may question whether this is actually true, but is that there is no filter, that he is just giving you his whatever he thinks in the moment, you know, and he's not trying. You know, he's like. And he's gotten more of a sense of humor over time, too. So he kind of, like, jokes about it. You know, the stuff's real. I mean, as we're talking here today, as we're recording this, they've just indicted James Comey over an Instagram post from last year. I mean, this is using the power of the Justice Department. To do whatever you can to get retribution against the President's enemies. They already tried to indict him on something else completely unrelated. This case actually makes that case that was thrown out. You know, look like, you know, really serious.

35:51

Jon Karl

But, you know, Comey's gonna now need to lawyer up and his life is gonna be thrown. I mean, it's, I mean, you use.

35:58

Dave Almy

The name of the book, the fourth book is, begins with the word retribution. I mean, and it's clear that the President believes that his role, and it's his right in his role and the Supreme Court has kind of given him the ability to do this kind of thing because he can't. That he cannot be charged for things he does while he's as president is my understanding of it. But he's using his role to even scores and has removed people he believed weren't committed enough to that, like, sorry, Pam Bondi, we barely knew you kind of stuff. So if past is prologue, I mean, what does the final two years of his presidential term look like? I mean, is this going to be a free for all in your mind?

36:41

Jon Karl

I mean, the big X factor is what happens in the midterms, obviously. And you know, I mean, all indications are that Democrats are poised to retake the House, maybe retake the Senate, maybe a huge victory in the House. We don't know. We don't know. But that means you're, you have a Trump presidency. To get anything done, he's going to have to somehow work with Democrats who are going to be hell bent on retribution of their own against him. The investigations, I mean, impeachment, but not just impeachment.

37:20

Dave Almy

I mean, is it true that the House in this term has passed one bill? Is that accurate?

37:24

Jon Karl

Yeah, I mean, but Dave, it was an important bill. I mean, you know, but I mean,.

37:30

Dave Almy

I guess what you're saying is if it's the Democrats, I mean, that might be a record.

37:34

Jon Karl

Yeah, yeah. I mean, theoretically you need to fund it, you know, fund the government, which is what they did. But I mean, my God, how does that, what does that look like?

37:46

Dave Almy

What does it look like? If he's running out of time and he knows he doesn't have. Let's just say hypothetically, it's a Democratic House of Representatives. We'll just call the Senate. It's going to be close one way or the other. The things he can do by executive privilege are the things I'm assuming he will focus on the most.

38:04

Jon Karl

Right. All those executive orders and, and those things you know, he can do. And then a lot of them have been knocked down in the courts. He's got a very poor win loss record in the courts on those things. And of course they can get overturned the minute a new president comes in. I think the thing he's going to be focused on in large part is building. He made a comment to me not that long ago. He's like, I think I might be. What do you think, John? I, I think I might be a better builder than I am a politician. I did not answer the question.

38:36

Dave Almy

You didn't say. Well, you actually weren't all that good at that.

38:38

Jon Karl

Yeah, I mean, I, I don't know. There's no answer I could have given. That would have been interesting. Yeah, yeah. But arches, ballrooms, I mean, obviously he's upset and it's. And they're calling it the ark.

38:51

Dave Almy

Oh, the ark.

38:53

Jon Karl

So I, I mean, I think that's what they mean when they're talking about the arch that they're planning on building.

38:58

Dave Almy

Unless. Are they putting animals too? Like, is there like, for animals?

39:02

Jon Karl

I mean, with all this, like global warming and stuff? I don't know. Maybe. Okay. But you know, he's going to be very focused on all of that. His, his ballroom there. I don't know if, you know, you're a sports guy, you know, so he's got all these plans for a golf course at Haynes Point, which is that part of D.C. right. He's trying to take that right near the Jefferson Memorial. And it's like this little municipal golf course I have I ever brought you out there to play. There used to be five bucks for nine holes.

39:30

Dave Almy

And it's like, it's about my pace.

39:33

Jon Karl

And it's got 36 holes, it's got all these different courses and it's all fairways. So. So if you slice it the way sometimes you do, you could, you could slice across three different fairways.

39:46

Dave Almy

Balls. Looking at me and talking about my slicing.

39:49

Jon Karl

Well, yeah, my slice too. I know. So. So. Which means it's a dangerous place to play because, you know, the other guys are also.

39:56

Dave Almy

Everybody's all over the place. Yeah.

39:58

Jon Karl

You know, you yell four and it's like, where is it coming from? But like a Robert Trent Jones Jr. Golf course down there. He's redoing the Kennedy Center. I mean, he's like focused on all this stuff. He was talking the other day endlessly about the reflecting pool in front of the Lincoln Memorial and how he got a guy to Come in.

40:17

Dave Almy

Soon to be swimming pool. It kind of looks like.

40:19

Jon Karl

Yeah, yeah.

40:21

Dave Almy

All right, so look, we talked about the first part of the book title, Retribution, but I wanted to look at that second part of the book title, Donald Trump and the Campaign that changed America.

40:30

Jon Karl

Yeah.

40:30

Dave Almy

This is a two parter, right? Did Donald Trump change America or did a changed America give rise to Donald Trump? That's the first part.

40:41

Jon Karl

Well, I think a changed America gave rise to Donald Trump, but then Trump has proceeded to change America.

40:48

Dave Almy

Grab the handlebars.

40:49

Jon Karl

And I think that the first term, what he did turned out to be rather ephemeral. You know, Biden came in undid all the stuff he had done by executive order. He hadn't really done much through Congress. He hadn't really. It was kind of like he was there and he was gone this time. You know, he's changing this country and he's changing our political system. I mean, he is showing what can be done by executive power and providing a roadmap for future presidents who may act in very different ways, but are going to be able to use the power they've got. Precedent has been set. He's changing, you know, we talked about the building. I mean, it's only symbolic, but he is, you know, changing the physical feel official Washington and the relationship with the military.

41:50

Jon Karl

The politicization of the military is so beyond anything we have seen in our lifetimes. You know, I don't think we'll ever have another defense secretary quite like Pete Hegseth. But, but they've gone through, I mean, I closed the book with a description of a speech that Trump gave at Fort Bragg where they literally brought in and sold Trump merchandise on the base, which is, you know, I mean, you've got two kids in the military. You know, the ethic is, you know,.

42:19

Dave Almy

There's no politics when you're wearing the.

42:21

Jon Karl

Uniform and they're, they're ripping that apart now. I mean, hopefully that snaps back into place. But it's, you know, Trump doesn't see any of those distinctions.

42:33

Dave Almy

No, it's all one continuum for him.

42:36

Jon Karl

Yeah.

42:36

Dave Almy

Everything's political.

42:38

Jon Karl

And then there's just the deep divide in our country, which certainly he didn't create. But, you know, he's done a hell of a lot.

42:46

Dave Almy

He's harnessed it.

42:48

Jon Karl

Yeah, yeah.

42:49

Dave Almy

So like I said, there's a, there's, we talked about there's two years left on this. About two years left on this term a little over.

42:56

Jon Karl

Yeah. I don't mean to be literal here, but I mean, it's like more than two and a half years. I mean, you could say a little less than three.

43:07

Dave Almy

Okay. So maybe that's a little revealing of my perspective.

43:09

Jon Karl

29, Who's counting? But yeah.

43:12

Dave Almy

Okay, I'm back. I'm back. I mean, there's a lot of time for momentous stuff to happen. So are you charting book five? I mean, is this like, is the outline starting to come together? I mean, I don't want to. I'm getting ahead on the presidency, clearly. I'm getting ahead on your publishing calendar as well.

43:28

Jon Karl

Yeah, I mean, I will tell you this just between us and your listeners, so please, nobody revealed. I'm under, I am under contract to do another book. But, and I, and my idea was to do one that would kind of come out like, this year, but I have not written anything, I mean, besides my journal, my notes. So it's not coming out this year.

43:50

Dave Almy

Have you tried chat GPT? That's really helpful.

43:52

Jon Karl

Yeah. Give me an 80,000 to 120, 000 word. Right in the style of Jonathan.

43:59

Dave Almy

Carl of ABC News.

44:01

Jon Karl

So what I've decided is that I don't want to do it until after the end of this presidency because I, I, I think it's a kind of a fool's errand. I, so much has changed. We don't know what it means.

44:13

Dave Almy

Oh, you have to change it on the fly as you're writing it, I would think.

44:16

Jon Karl

Well, and like, I mean, there are big things we don't know. I mean, how is Iran going to turn out? I mean, does it turn out to be like the greatest foreign policy disaster, you know, since Iraq or Vietnam? Or, or does it actually end up happening that there's a resolution and really the, you know, after, you know, a tough period that we're in right now that Iran is, you know, weakened dramatically, they no longer have a nuclear weapons program, their missile program is largely gone, and they're not supporting proxies because they don't have the means to. I mean, it's not impossible that we look back and Iran actually ends up, Historians say, well, you know what? That ended up working out. I'm not predicting that, I'm not predicting either scenario.

45:10

Jon Karl

But what I'm saying is you cannot, there's no way to calibrate it where that's gonna go.

45:16

Dave Almy

I am with Jon Karl. He is the chief Washington correspondent for ABC News. He's the author of Donald Trump and The campaign that changed America. He's also my former college roommate, known for a few years now. So going back some time. John, appreciate the time as always, but before I let you go, like, man, this is a sports conversations podcast.

45:34

Jon Karl

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

45:35

Dave Almy

So I'm gonna throw you, Jonathan Carl, into the lightning round. I've got a few sports related questions for you, and I want you to chime in on them first thing that comes into your mind. Are you ready?

45:44

Jon Karl

Yep.

45:46

Dave Almy

We'll see. You and I saw Mets game together in the late 80s. Who was pitching and how electric was he?

45:53

Jon Karl

We saw a game with, I believe it was Dwight Gooden, and I believe that he was electrifying in a way that, I mean, you might have.

46:05

Dave Almy

I've never seen anything like it.

46:07

Jon Karl

I mean. I mean, it might have been the greatest season for a pitcher. I know Bob Gibson had some great seasons and Maddox and some of these guys, Randy Johnson.

46:15

Dave Almy

But your dad knew. Knew an umpire and we got to sit in the umpire's seats, so we got to see the action on Doc Gooden's curveball and just. I've never seen anything like it before in my life since. It was just. Just nuts. All right, so, yes, that was.

46:29

Jon Karl

And I. We don't need to mention the. I know it's a lightning round. We don't need to mention that you're, of course, a Red Sox Fan and the 86 World Series and all that. We don't need to.

46:37

Dave Almy

We don't. We don't mention, you know, because there's been some years that have passed, John, and there's been some other World Series as one. Okay, question number two. See, look at you trying to bring the tone down. All right, question number two. Should Jerry Jones sell the Cowboys?

46:50

Jon Karl

I can't say yes because even if. Even if the answer is actually yes, I don't want to speak ill of the Cowboys.

46:57

Dave Almy

All right, fine. Question number three. Who won the last tennis match we played?

47:02

Jon Karl

I'm afraid you won.

47:03

Dave Almy

I don't think that's true. I think I've heard you say that. I think I've heard you say that in the past. All right, follow up question. If were to play pickleball, who would win that match?

47:13

Jon Karl

Yeah, I think you'd beat me.

47:15

Dave Almy

Have you ever played pickleball?

47:17

Jon Karl

I've played like three times.

47:18

Dave Almy

Okay, so we're gonna be well suited. All right, so we should get out on the court and bring money.

47:21

Jon Karl

All right.

47:22

Dave Almy

What was your personal, by the way?

47:24

Jon Karl

I. My recollection is I vastly outplayed you in tennis? I played a much better game. My form was better, I had better shots. But that you won, if I. Am I wrong about that? That was my recollection.

47:35

Dave Almy

John, Carl is a fantastic looking tennis player.

47:39

Jon Karl

I mean, the backhand, the forehand.

47:41

Dave Almy

I mean, every once in a while I have to. I just have to pause and watch.

47:46

Jon Karl

What's, what's that famous quote from Federer about how he lost 47 of the points?

47:51

Dave Almy

Exactly. I mean, but he looked fantastic losing those 40s.

47:56

Jon Karl

Just like you.

47:57

Dave Almy

Yeah, just like you. All right, what's your personal highlight of playing on the Vassar College lacrosse team?

48:03

Jon Karl

I. I think it was the. The game against ccny when I actually feel that I at least caught a couple of passes. I'm gonna throw in a couple passes, and I think I even might have taken a shot at goal. Wow. I may be embellishing, but I think I might.

48:19

Dave Almy

It may have been from a half field, but it happened. Okay. You are a pretty big Nats fan and I'm a pretty big Red Sox fan.

48:27

Jon Karl

Yeah. As you noted, what team has the better records of.

48:31

Dave Almy

Our teams are seven games out and we're not even out of April.

48:36

Jon Karl

So who.

48:36

Dave Almy

Who has it worse right now?

48:39

Jon Karl

Yeah. I mean, the great thing that the Nats have going for them is low expectations. I mean, this is like they're exceeding. I mean, they're doing great.

48:46

Dave Almy

Seven games out in April. All right.

48:48

Jon Karl

I mean, but you know, James Wood right now, early. You know, I, I like to get ahead of things here. James Wood is clearly a contender for MVP already. I mean, the way he's hitting. And CJ Abrams may also be a contender. So two of the most electrifying hitters in baseball are on the Washington Nationals.

49:08

Dave Almy

Just do that. Closers now on D, Somebody they could pick. All right, all right, last one, John. Last one.

49:13

Jon Karl

All right.

49:14

Dave Almy

You are a, obviously a political scientist, a fan of history. What president is the biggest sports fan, both historically and through your personal observation?

49:29

Jon Karl

So it's not Teddy Roosevelt, because Teddy Roosevelt actually hated baseball. Now. He was instrument in football.

49:36

Dave Almy

He was a football. He kind of saved the game of football.

49:39

Jon Karl

But, you know, the Nats have the running presidents, and Teddy Roosevelt, you know, is one of them in la. But he never, like, he never threw out a first pitch. Taft was the guy that first threw out the first pitch. I, you know, I think that. I think two of our modern guys here are probably in contention, maybe three of them. Certainly. Obama is a fanatic sports fan, you know, largely basketball. And George W. Bush, just a massive former owner of the Rangers, former owner of a baseball team, buddy with Nolan Ryan. You know, Trump loves sports, too, man. Trump really loves sports.

50:16

Dave Almy

Does he really?

50:17

Jon Karl

I don't think I knew that. Because he likes to. It's not that he's like, sitting there watching the games. He likes to be around the athletes. He knows them. He's like buddies with them. He likes, you know, Tiger Woods.

50:25

Dave Almy

His first call after his accident was to. Was to Trump, I believe.

50:28

Jon Karl

Yes.

50:30

Dave Almy

First thing you reach for.

50:32

Jon Karl

Yeah. Yeah.

50:33

Dave Almy

John Karl, chief Washington correspondent, ABC News, author of Retribution, Donald Trump and the Campaign, the Change of America. Johnny, great to see you as always.

50:41

Jon Karl

Hey, Dave, congratulations on episode 100. I was going to ask you offline. I wanted to get a quick synopsis of the first 99 episodes, but I.

50:50

Dave Almy

Will break them down for you. This is the first political conversation we've had on the show, and after this, it's probably going to be the last.

50:58

Jon Karl

All right, all right. Good, good. Legendary.