Mac Barnhardt, Partner at Rock Empire Sports

00:02

Mac Barnhardt

Hey, this is Mac Barnhart. I'm a partner at Rock Empire Sports Group, and I'm going one one with ADC Partners.

00:25

Dave Almy

it Jerry maguire effect. The: 1996

01:13

Dave Almy

He's lived the dream. Yeah, but he's also seen the nightmare, too, right? He's been fired from companies he started. He's elevated proteges only to betrayed by them. He was even forced to leave the industry for a couple of years. So suffice it to say, Mac Barnhart has seen it all and learned even more. In our conversation, he shares a lot of that hard earned wisdom, goes into how he went from loading baggage for Piedmont Airlines to representing golf's greatest players, and shares how he maintains perspective through the highs up and lows of being a sports agent. So thanks for listening in on my conversation with Mac Barnhardt, president of Rock Empire Sports. Hope you enjoy.

You played four years of golf at High Point University, right? This is back in the 80s. Did you have aspirations for playing after college? Did.

02:09

Dave Almy

Was there, was there a sight in your ideas, the pro career laying out there before you? Or how did that manifest itself for you?

02:18

Mac Barnhardt

Man, I think every kid, you know, dreams about playing, you know, professionally at the highest level. But realistically, was there any chance? Absolutely not. No, I. I played enough amateur golf. Oh, heck, yeah.

02:31

Dave Almy

Oh, okay.

02:31

Mac Barnhardt

Yeah, it took about. I played in some pretty big tournaments like the North South Amateur, and, you know, you'd play up against Davis Love and Billy Andrade and I mean, and you go like, well, nope, this isn't for me. I don't know if I was good enough to caddy for them. That's. I mean, how much better they were than me. But no, he didn't take long.

02:49

Dave Almy

I figured that out when you went like, you're in a tournament, and, like, there's a moment where you thought, okay, you know, oh, shoot.

02:55

Mac Barnhardt

Oh, God. Yeah. I mean, you know, I think that's what they use the word choking. I mean, you know, it's just that you would get ahead of yourself. You may have a lead, and then, you know, three holes later, you just turn in this babbling idiot. And. And. And the guys that were so good didn't even act like it bothered them. I got ner. If I got four under par, I got nervous that they got four under par. They were trying to figure out how to get to eight. You know, it's just different mindset, a different ability level. I just didn't have it. Yeah, I just didn't have it.

03:23

Dave Almy

So you played in college, you had a good experience. It kind of took you to the next thing, and you started working in the airline industry.

03:28

Mac Barnhardt

Right.

03:28

Dave Almy

I think you even said, like, you know, Piedmont Airlines and Piedmont Airlines.

03:32

Mac Barnhardt

Yeah, I was a classic.

03:33

Dave Almy

They were there.

03:34

Mac Barnhardt

If they hadn't got purchased by us there, I'd probably still be there. That's one. That's a culture company. It was. I mean, what an incredible family. But, yeah, loaded bags, loaded. People just did the whole thing. Got into marketing with that, and, you know, great experience. Got to learn to travel. I know airport codes really well. So now when my guys need to go somewhere, but, yeah, really cool. But just, you know, a bizarre world in that time because US Air purchased Piedmont, and so then I got laid off, and then I got a job with Branif Airlines, who had come out of bankruptcy.

04:05

Dave Almy

Yeah, yeah.

04:07

Mac Barnhardt

And that lasted, I think, 45 days before they went bankrupt again. I got a kind of a conflict.

04:12

Dave Almy

Getting the sense of your. Might have been the kiss of death for airline companies.

04:15

Mac Barnhardt

And that's what people are saying. And, you know, and I. I just got married, and so I took a job as a carpenter building fences and decks, just trying to figure out how to make a living, and ended up with American Airlines living in San Francisco in Silicon Valley. That's pretty good for a redneck from North Carolina.

04:29

Dave Almy

Not too bad.

04:30

Mac Barnhardt

Great experience. I got to meet, you know, Steve Jobs and Larry Ellison and some really cool people. And in that. In that environment before, they were household names, too. Oh, yeah. If I'd have had any money at all and bought a thousand dollars of their stocks, I'd probably wouldn't be on this show right now.

04:46

Dave Almy

Probably not. All right, so. But look, thank. Thankfully, it brought us together. Your. Your inability to make a financial investment at that time in startup technology, absolutely Led us to. So silver linings, Max. Silver linings.

04:58

Mac Barnhardt

Everybody thinks they're in control. Everybody asked me how I got to where I am. I'm like, there was no sports management or sports marketing when I was in college. I mean, there were barely computers when I was there. And when I was in San Francisco, you know, obviously being from the South, I wanted to get back, and I couldn't figure out how to do it. And I ended up in Washington, D.C. One day in a conversation with a guy, and he says, you know, the job up here is not for you. And I was like, naturally, you know, send me back to California. And he goes, no, I've got a job in Richmond, Virginia that's perfect for you if you want it. And I said, yeah. And so I go to Richmond, Virginia.

05:34

Mac Barnhardt

You know, I've still played a little golf, still played, you know, amateur golf, and started playing with some guys. And there was a guy named Vinnie Giles who owned this little bitty management company called Pros Incorporated. And I mean, he was, you know, Vinny's probably one of the best amateurs ever played a game. I mean, he's a famous guy in my world. And so anyhow, ran across him, some guys that worked for him, a guy named Dave Marie. And somehow, just in the blink of an eye, I was in this business.

05:59

Dave Almy

So you were meeting with somebody who's for a different job.

06:04

Mac Barnhardt

Yeah.

06:04

Dave Almy

Who said, this one's not for you. Try this other one.

06:09

Mac Barnhardt

Yeah, I, I, I mean, I know the guy's name, his guy named Jeff Poiking. I'll never forget it because I, it's been kind of a long run trying to get back to the Southeast. And, and while I'm there, he just looks at me and he was on the phone and he hung up. And the guy he was on the phone with was the guy's position in Richmond that was resigning. And he says, and he says, this job's for you. And it, I mean, that's why I say the universe just seemed to just keep putting me where I'm supposed to be, as bad as it feels sometimes. But it just, and that's why I am the way I am now. As I didn't get here because I planned it, I just kind of ended up here.

06:41

Dave Almy

But, you know, there's also the, I can't remember, there's certain variations on the saying, right? It's, you know, the old failure to prepare is preparing to fail type of thing. You put yourself in positions to succeed you put yourself in positions to be able to be in front of people who can direct you. And whether that's just tenacity, whether that's a sparkling, witty repartee going back and forth with people, it does. I mean, there is a happenstance to it, there is a lot of chance to it, but you have to be prepared to take those chances.

07:09

Mac Barnhardt

Yeah, but I mean, everything I'd done up to that time prepared me almost for everything I needed to do. I had travel experience and you have get around the world. I, I'd played against great players, I'd done things and I mean to be put in that position, I mean, I, looking back, it's just, it makes no sense. I tell people all the time, there's Joe Walsh, the Eagles, and he said that when you're living life, it looks like these random chaotic happenings with no purpose. And you look back and it looks like a well orchestrated novel. And it just, and my life is exactly that. I tell people I'm kind of a funny Forrest Gump. I mean it just the things I've got to do and I have people call me all the time, said, you know, how did you plan?

07:49

Mac Barnhardt

I said, I hadn't planned anything. I mean, I really.

07:53

Dave Almy

Well, what about the experiences like working in places like airline companies? Did they, did they provide a foundation for what you were doing or was this a complete needle scratch across the record?

08:03

Mac Barnhardt

Well, I mean, loading airplanes analogy. Yeah. Loading bags into a plane is tough business. I mean, it's work, right. And then dealing with people in an airport ticket counters, you're dealing with people mad for no reason beyond your reasons, beyond your control. And I did learn something. I learned that, you know, and this happens a lot, you know, things happen that are not my fault, but they're my responsibility. If I, I order something for a client to have the next tournament, it doesn't show up. I always apologize. And they're still what's not your fault? They said, no, it's not my fault, but it's my responsibility. And if I take that stance, at least they know that I'm not going to shirk to do these and lay it off on somebody else.

08:47

Mac Barnhardt

You got a customer at an airline and there's a flight delay because of weather and this guy's missing his birth of his baby and he's upset. Right? And you, and you apologize to him and I learned that at least they feel like you have empathy, right. And that you can understand what you're doing, even though there's nothing I can do about it. And that happens a lot in golf. There's a lot I can't fix. But there's a lot of responsibility that we, you know, that we try to take for them.

09:11

Dave Almy

So you work with Pros Incorporated, the, your first foray into golf agency and player representation. But you know that evolves. Right. And you end up launching Crown Sports Management, which was decision to just go out on your own. Like, figure this was.

09:27

Mac Barnhardt

y called Octagon. Oh yeah. In: 1999

10:12

Mac Barnhardt

Your time and rest is. And I got called to the carpet. Octagon did not make him go overseas. And I just said. And the guy said, you got to remember who you work for. And I said, I work for the client. Well, it wasn't long after that we parted ways.

10:30

Dave Almy

Yeah. So the cultural fit was not exact.

10:33

Mac Barnhardt

Yeah, no. And so I started crown again in 03, I think it was, and started over again and with a lot of support and from some. A lot of clients. And so I built that up.

10:47

Dave Almy

Well, I'm assuming that if you approach this with a player centric focus, that when you start up, the culture that you're trying to put in place attracts those same players back to you.

11:00

Mac Barnhardt

Exactly.

11:00

Dave Almy

Or even within the network of the players. Talking about it like, oh, if you don't have an agent, you might want to check Crown Sports Management out because of the way they approach the business.

11:10

Mac Barnhardt

Yes. Most of the people. It's not a toughest choice between us and the other groups. We are, I don't want to say we're much different. And these are great. There's great guys in the business. But, you know, our focus is not driven on the bottom line. We don't make decisions on our. We Hope we earn a nice living, but we're not out to make money making money. They're not products. These are human beings. And, you know, I have clients for 30 years. This is not just a short term run. Yeah.

11:35

Dave Almy

Is that just the difference, though, between having a company that you start and own and control and being able to dictate culture versus being part of a larger organization with private equity investors or public companies? It just allows you that level of flexibility to. Yeah, I don't think so.

11:54

Mac Barnhardt

Correct. And. And even though I did that, I got. I got into a position in the early, you know, 2, 211, 212, where the competition was in our business was getting really stiff. The money's gotten big and it brought in a lot of people wanting to make money. And so I did it again. So I ended up selling my company again to a company from France. And I'm thinking, okay, I know the mistakes I made last time, I won't make them this time.

12:17

Dave Almy

And this is legader.

12:18

Mac Barnhardt

Like it there? Yep. And I made it a total. I made it five years there, which was, you know, better than my previous. This. There's a movie out there called Jerry Maguire if you've ever seen it. It. It. That is exactly what happened. I had a couple people working with me that betrayed me. No other ways to do it behind the back. And this one was a little bit heavier in a lot of senses because this island that I live on is my company. And it split the whole island. So. But again, another learning opportunity. And I. You just can't figure out people will say anything. And this is the funny thing. This company, what they promised me and what they did, if I was a client, there's no way I'm working with anybody that promises that they did it to me. And I.

13:06

Mac Barnhardt

And I was the reason they bought me.

13:08

Dave Almy

I thought.

13:08

Mac Barnhardt

Right, right. So they're buying.

13:10

Dave Almy

You think they're buying the culture?

13:12

Mac Barnhardt

Yep, that's what they told me they were doing. I have message, I have texts and messages saying that's why they did it. But, yeah, no, that wasn't what they're doing. They were just trying to make as much money off of them as they could.

13:22

Dave Almy

So is there a place in this business for. And I hate to use this phrase, but I'm going here for nice guys.

13:33

Mac Barnhardt

Right.

13:33

Dave Almy

For guys who. I mean, I guess everything I've ever heard about player representation is it can be very Jerry Maguire. Right. It can be pretty cutthroat and it can be pretty tough. And you have to have a Thick skin is that belief? I mean clearly you had success, but on two times now you kind of experience these very difficult transitions. So is there still room for that? The client focus, the quote unquote, nice guy in this kind of industry.

14:01

Mac Barnhardt

Yeah. I mean there is, I mean golf for sure.

14:04

Dave Almy

Yeah.

14:04

Mac Barnhardt

I mean golf is such a different game in the sense that, I mean people don't realize when the baseball player turns pro, he's signed by an agent, but the agent signs into a team and he's got mentors, he's got coaches that are mentors. His peers are mentors. A golfer's got that right up until he turns pro. The minute he turns pro, he's a long book. He's on his own. Yeah. And what you think they know at 22? Yeah, they don't. And so this is. Yeah, so I mean my guys in my company are the best people. I know they may not be the best agents, but they're the best people. I don't know why you would trust anybody that's out there just to make you money. That ones that promise you I'll make you a lot of money if you sign with me.

14:47

Mac Barnhardt

I'm like, we don't make anybody money. They make them. We manage the process.

14:52

Dave Almy

Could you talk about the period after you left Lagadare because you triggered a non compete for you. You had to step away from the business for two years. Can you talk about that period? I wonder what you learned about the business by having to step away from it for a period of time.

15:13

Mac Barnhardt

Man. Yeah, that was a heavy one. I mean lost friends and clients. I mean I didn't do anything wrong. Wasn't. I mean was. It was the first four or five months was as dark as I've ever been. I've never been bad as I've ever been. Yeah, I didn't realize it. Other people noticed it. I went to the Idaho mountains. I love to snowboard, so I just went to the Idaho mountains and I called it my non compete tour. I went to Canada. Snowboarding.

15:42

Dave Almy

That's a good way to use the time.

15:43

Mac Barnhardt

I, I got a life coach to try to help me find my way back into what I want to do it. I was lucky that a couple of people, my current partner that lives in Scotland flew here a week after heard about it to come see me and he's my partner today because that I. I found out who mattered in my life. Found out that was a really incredible. Who mattered. There's been some People that have been way beyond. They saw things I didn't know they saw and they were there. So that was great. And then as I came out of it, you know, getting through the betrayal and the things that happened and trying to get make sense of all that, I, I then started looking at my future, like, did I want to get in this thing again?

16:27

Mac Barnhardt

I mean, gosh dog it, third time's a charm. Yeah. And you know, I mean, you're signing kids out of college and betting that they're going to play well enough for you to earn a living. That's a tough thing. And you try to help them. So. But yeah, I, I really. And again, my partner in Scotland, Russell Gray, he's the one that convinced me. He essentially said, listen, this business needs a nice guy. Because he wasn't in my business. He was another partner in another part of my life and logistics business and he's the one that arranged the funding. He, he did it all. He, you know, he worked kind of for, he was a consultant for us for a while for his business in Europe and he ended up turning to be in a consultant for me. So you would never know that. Right.

17:09

Dave Almy

Everything goes full circle again.

17:11

Mac Barnhardt

So here it was the worst thing that's ever happened to me and that was the worst, I mean, business wise turned around and gave me an opportunity to really do it my way on a global span.

17:22

Dave Almy

Did you doubt the approach for a while? I mean, it sounds like this was pretty cataclysmic stuff. I mean, if you think about it from, you know, when you build something and it's become someone else's and then it kind of gets taken away from you. Did you have these periods? It sounds like it went through a really hard time there. Was there a period where you started to go, maybe that's just not the approach that's needed. And what brought you out of that?

17:48

Mac Barnhardt

Yeah, I got into it that I, you know, when you have people that work with you that I brought along, I, I built them. There's no, I was signing clients that they got to manage and you know, I, I helped them buy houses, I helped them do things to get started and to just, I mean, you couldn't have. I've never seen anything like it. I mean, but yeah, you start not trusting people. And that was one of the things I had to work through is that I don't want to be someone that trusts people. You know, I don't want to be that guy. So it took a while.

18:20

Dave Almy

Let's talk about that concept of trust for a second because, and now I've never done player representation, but I'm assuming that building trust between the player and their fan, with the player and their family, is the coin of the realm associated with this. Right. They're putting their career and livelihood in your hands as their representative. So as you've thought about that idea of trust and how you build it with players and how some of the issues that you had with business in the past, I'm wondering what thoughts you have on creating trusting relationships. Like what are some things that you feel like you do or that are integral to your business to establish that level of trust.

19:14

Mac Barnhardt

Authenticity. Authenticity is everything to me. I really did notice now that I'm going to be the same person. You see, if you're, if I'm sitting with a caddy, if I'm sitting with a player, if I'm sitting with the president of the United States, I think that when you recruit, I'm going to be the same guy you're going to meet no matter where you meet him. So I think that's the way that I now trust people. When I encourage, when I come across two different personalities according to who the person's with, my trust level goes completely to zero. Right.

19:47

Dave Almy

So when they put on a face.

19:49

Mac Barnhardt

Well, you know, if they're with somebody a little more important, how they treat you versus where somebody they consider less important. When I consider everyone the same.

19:55

Dave Almy

Oh, yes, the people at the cocktail party looking over their shoulder to see who else they can talk to.

20:00

Mac Barnhardt

There you go. Yeah. And, you know, and authenticity is a tough thing. And you know, I, I, I just had a call with one of my partners last night about it and I just, I won't make sure we're doing it right. But, you know, Nelson Mandela was authentic in his beliefs and everything, but he still spent 30 years in prison. It doesn't mean you're going to get an easy life. It doesn't mean you're going to be wealthy. It doesn't mean anything. But you do get to live your life. And so I can go around knowing that I'm going to be me. And so it's, if I can, it's, that's why it takes time for families to see you and to spend time with you, to know that this is who you are.

20:37

Mac Barnhardt

I mean, most of my competitors use the way I am against me. He's too soft. He's, you know, he's kind of laid back. Doesn't Work hard and, you know, I hate that's where that you think I come across. But, I mean, I'm going to come across this way. You'll just have to find out.

20:53

Dave Almy

But does that also put the right kind of player before you? Right. If there has to be a. The trust kind of has to work both ways, doesn't it?

21:04

Mac Barnhardt

Totally. Totally. I'm. I have probably released more clients than I've been fired by. And it wasn't that I don't like them. It's just that when the phone would ring, I'd see their number on the phone. And I just said that I can't deal with this. Right. My life's too short.

21:17

Dave Almy

How do I. How do I block the iPhone again?

21:20

Mac Barnhardt

Yeah, well, that's the whole thing is that I'm interviewing the client for me is as much him for me. Right. I mean, me for him. So I'm. I'm trying. I'm not trying to sell someone to sign with me. I'm trying to make sure they know who I am and how I do business.

21:36

Dave Almy

Right.

21:36

Mac Barnhardt

Then pick me. If you do that, who I supposedly compete with in life, there's not a. It's not a decision. There's one way or the other. I mean, and if you want me, you're going to be that kind of guy. You're going to be a family. You want to be feeling like. And if you just want to feel like, look there. I always say these, most of these companies, they look at rankings and say, this is. This is the best player. And amateur golf has nothing to do with pro golf. And you can't see that in a ranking. The rankings don't do them justice. And that's just their job to go find commodity, can find commodities to sell. Yeah. And they just make it up.

22:14

Mac Barnhardt

And I know those other guys, their lives are sometimes horrible because they don't have a match with the player. They don't really have a heart with the player. And I don't. I couldn't live like that. They're just not commodities to me. I mean, these are humans and. And they got a tough road ahead.

22:29

Dave Almy

Yeah, right, exactly. So there is this period where you step away from the business, then you decide to launch Rock Empire, and clearly you felt there was still work to be done here. So can you talk a little bit about the decision to start Rock Empire Sports and what culture you wanted to put in place there and how that may have differed from what you'd started with other companies that you started in the past?

22:57

Mac Barnhardt

Well, again, I'm gonna go back. Russell Gray's a guy that worked with me when I was in Europe for a month when we traveled in Europe and he's the one that convinced me that I needed to stay in the game. He, he secured the funding. He secured. I mean and he oversees the business. I don't.

23:14

Dave Almy

He talked you into it a little bit.

23:16

Mac Barnhardt

He did, but he oversees it. I don't have to do business anymore. He takes care of all. I can go and do my thing and be my thing and so. But as far as the culture. Absolutely not. No, I. This is the only way I know how to do it. I'm not going to change because this didn't work. And if you know and the people and we started a company called Rock Sports and Empire Sports is a group that we merged with because the guys that worked that I competed against when they were at other companies and just through time we figured out we all had the same feeling and we just thought we'd better together and it has worked out that way. So. But no, I think yeah, I just got talked into it and it was laid before me.

23:56

Mac Barnhardt

I didn't have to do much and I was given carte blanche to go build a great company and we have my company. I have now experience wise, ability wise, capacity wise is tenfold what I have before crown. How so I'm probably between just the people in the management business. We've probably got a hundred years of management between us. They are all now worked at big companies. These other guys worked at IMG and now they own their own small company and so they're in the same. We have. I have an office in Italy, I have an office in Scotland, I have an office in Spain. So I want to travel. We're global. Yeah, so do I. They always say don't you want to be me? I know I do, but yeah. So I've got incredible amount of experience. All of my people have got DNA.

24:48

Mac Barnhardt

amateurs in the world. Early: 2000

25:33

Dave Almy

I think this also kind of skills and fits right back to what I think of to sort of to discern as your approach here. Right. We've talked about culture and we've talked about trust and authenticity, sort of the fundamental building blocks. But one also seems to be a little less about. I think I've even seen you quoted on this. It's a little less about hand holding. Let me walk it down the whole, you know, the fairway, make sure everything's good. And more about career management. Giving players the tools that they'll need to be successful, not only short term, but long term as well. How is that pitch defined to young golfers and their families and where are they most receptive and where do they kind of go?

26:14

Mac Barnhardt

Well, unfortunately, most of the first questions are how much money can you make my son? And now this is starting in college and amateur got this nil stuff which is ridiculous. It's ridiculous.

26:26

Dave Almy

Not a fan?

26:28

Mac Barnhardt

No, not a fan. Because people are essentially going out now trying to buy clients in college so they don't have to recruit them when they're pros. That doesn't work. And you can watch the news and you'll see it doesn't work. But yeah, once we get past the money and I make them understand that no agent is any better than anyone else at making money. People say that, you know, this guy's got more contacts in corporate world. I said, you go one of the Masters, I have all the contacts all over me. It the phone rings when you play well, that's the way the game works.

26:57

Dave Almy

Yeah, that's how it works.

26:58

Mac Barnhardt

But I try to explain to them is that the career, this career could be 30 years. And so at 22, you've got a kid that has no responsibilities, no idea he's never had a job in his life. What he needs is so much different than a kid that's 30, that's won four times, that has two kids, is so much different than what he needs than my 45 year old guy that's now heading toward retirement or the senior tour. So having my. I've been doing this long for 33 years. I've seen it all. I've seen careers start and I've seen them in. I've had major wins, I've had Ryder cup captains. I've had every good thing you can have happen, which is necessary because that's a thing.

27:39

Mac Barnhardt

But I've had about every bad thing that can happen when you have to go into surgery and you send seven months off or when you parents pass away, divorces. Oh my goodness. I mean life is going to happen to these guys exactly like it happens to everyone else. And unfortunately things have gone so well for them and they make a lot of money and they have all this stuff and they think that's what would make them happy and it won't. Right?

28:04

Dave Almy

Yeah.

28:05

Mac Barnhardt

So it's like the whole. They think everything. I mean I, there's. I'll use David Duvall and he's a dear friend represented him and just one of the best humans I've ever been around. But he got to be number one in the world. And truly what happened is he said this is it. Because you think all these things are going to make really, it'll. This will tick the box that make me happy and it won't because I've seen this. So when I see kids slowly accomplish their goals, I kind of have to be there to make sure they understand, hey man, there's. That's not really the happiness in this thing. And it's over a week later.

28:42

Dave Almy

It's hard though, I imagine to translate that to younger players who have a certain amount of invincibility about them. They've probably been managed. I mean I'm asked the question, I'm assuming most of these kids, when they get to you are still being managed by their parents. It's this. These are, those are big world life living issues that the average 22 year old who's trying to figure out how to balance a checkbook is probably still getting to. I'm interested in how the player of today differs from the player than when you first got started. Like how much more involved families are and how much more interested in the revenue associated are they. I mean, what's that, what's today's player like?

29:29

Mac Barnhardt

Yeah, amazing. I mean, you know, before Tiger, you know there's pre Tiger and after Tiger, the money. Before Tiger just wasn't that much money. It was great, but it wasn't sure like this host Tiger and then every parent has had this kid that at four years old shows us an amazing amount of talent and you know, and they win their junior tournaments and they get superior instruction. They get all these things and they come all the way through it and we're. And now One thing they look at is they look at Justin Thomas winning tournaments and his mom and dad sitting beside the green and they've been with him since junior golf and they're still there. If you go to a tournament now, his mom and dad will be there.

30:10

Mac Barnhardt

And I think all these parents somehow start to absorb that this is what we get to do. And I'm not saying all of them. And they all want the best for their kid. And then the parents all learn about our business from the other parents before the other kids that went pro. And it's because I know who, which parent has talked to who when they ask the question. I mean, that's how it. Because they, because this has been going on for 10, 15 years and they've.

30:36

Dave Almy

All been seeing each other at tournaments for the last 10 years and things like that.

30:40

Mac Barnhardt

And, and no, you know, and I always tell people, you know, when I do speaking things, I always tell people everybody wants the job. They think I have. And they think what we're doing. Most people have so little concept what really goes on in the business. A lot of the agents don't want anybody to know that. Cause it makes them look like they're really good at it. But when these guys play well, you can produce some pretty incredible deals. Yeah. And when they play bad, you suck.

31:06

Dave Almy

Can you?

31:07

Mac Barnhardt

Okay. And that's our job.

31:08

Dave Almy

There you go. There you go. I want that at the bottom of the website going forward. When the players play well, you're great. When they don't, you suck. Can you talk about. Because we talked, you mentioned it earlier, right. The whole Jerry Maguire fantasy. I think most people think about working in sports kind of look at like one of their first destinations is athlete representative. It's kind of like the idea of it, right? You know, going to the golf courses.

31:31

Mac Barnhardt

And hanging out in the hospital and.

31:34

Dave Almy

All that kind of stuff. Where does the reality veer the most? Away from the perception that people have of athlete representation.

31:47

Mac Barnhardt

Oh, the fact that you're somebody.

31:50

Dave Almy

Yeah.

31:50

Mac Barnhardt

These guys think that's who you are. I tell people all the time. All I've ever had is position, power. When Davis Love was number two in the world, I was as smart as anybody in the world. And right now, I guess my Highest ranked players, 40th in the world. And I mean, I'm just not that bright anymore. And there's kids 35 years old that somehow lucked into a player that's not said luck. I shouldn't say that. But some reason, but some reason they have this guy that's seventh in the world. And I see them talking to the commissioner of the PGA Tour like they've got something to add. And I always look at it and go, like.

32:23

Mac Barnhardt

But I remember back in the 90s when I didn't know what I was doing, that Tim Fincham would call me and ask me my advice, because I had players playing good. And everybody treats you like that. I mean, when you walk in a room and you've had a major winner recently, I mean, everybody wants to talk to you. I can go in a room right now, and I promise you, very few people will come over except the ones that just want to, you know, say hey and gab. But that's the reality is these people want to be somebody. I truly think they. They think they matter because they're standing around this incredible player. I've never looked at it like that. I'm. I'm a. I'm a service. I'm there to serve my client.

32:57

Mac Barnhardt

And yeah, I'm on TV sometimes and I get an interview, but I mean, it's not me, you know, and that's. That's the biggest problem. There's a lot of these guys. I've had people come up. I don't like being a doctor anymore. I don't like being a pilot anymore. I want to do what you do. And I just kind of giggled like, wow, good luck. That easy. Is it that easy looking?

33:17

Dave Almy

I do make it look pretty easy, don't I?

33:19

Mac Barnhardt

Oh, my. Yeah.

33:21

Dave Almy

Well, when you think about where the sport is headed and where the athletes are headed and what you want to do with Rock Empire, how does that future look like to you? Is it. Is it more of the same? Is there an evolution out ahead of you that you see? How's that going to be for. For Rock Empire sports?

33:41

Mac Barnhardt

I don't think we can change. I mean, this is our culture and this is what we're going to do. We're managed golfers. But as you. If you keep up with this golf world, with the recent things, you know, you've got your major and one of the major tours in the world, the PJ Tour, that's, you know, desperately looking for financing to try to compete with a Saudi run thing and, you know, they probably haven't made one move correctly in the last three years, and you're watching that and, you know, and it's. That's not being. I mean, well, I guess it is criticism, so. But it's true. So we've got a sport to where someone actually made these golfers Think they were worth messy or worth, you know, I was trying to explain. So I think Messi's got 604 million followers in social media.

34:27

Mac Barnhardt

Tiger woods has eight. And Tiger woods is the biggest golfer ever. And I try to say, and I don't mean this in a bad way, golfer golf is kind of women's pro basketball compared to soccer or NFL football. And I'm. It's just not that many people.

34:46

Dave Almy

So the expectations have gotten ahead of themselves. And the money got dumped in from the live Tour and it just refocused everybody.

34:54

Mac Barnhardt

What's the funny thing is I had a mathematician, I mean, that I wanted to see if he could take the Tour growth of earnings and remove Tigra from that growth. And he did it for me. And it's staggering. And looking at it, not only when Lib showed up putting more money out there, the Tour probably should have been constricting versus debt. They should have been going the other way because viewership was down, the growth wasn't down. Tiger's essentially out of the game. And that's what I say. They just weren't paying attention. Things were going so well. I use, you know, we've got two Navy SEALs that train our guys, you know, on performance. And they say success creates blind spots. And the Tour's been successful for 30 years. So those blind spots got them.

35:41

Dave Almy

And in our business, we talk about, look, anybody could sell the Chicago Bulls when Michael Jordan was playing for the Chicago Bulls. If one, that someone who was good at sales, find someone who was working for the LA Clippers at that time, that person's animal. Right? Success creates blind spots.

35:57

Mac Barnhardt

And. And they, and so. And that's exactly what happened. And this will be studied in every business school from the history of business, because this is the way it happened. But you had a business that probably should have been constricting purses because revenues were going to be down, viewership was down for a lot of reasons, but it was down. And. And all of a sudden, here comes a competitor that's going to just way overpay. And they got called into this that they, you know, the Tour believed that those were their players, even though they're independent contractor. And they just got caught thinking. But you have, you know, I always tell people, no one working in the Tour that's there, that I know of, in the C suite, I'm talking about upper echelons were there before Tiger got there.

36:42

Mac Barnhardt

They showed up flying the private jet, right? They didn't. They didn't. They didn't know what the good times were rolling and. And they're still promoting Tiger playing like he's really involved and it's kind of almost. It's a little comical. I mean, the guy's great, but I mean, he's 49 and you know, bless his heart. I mean, been beat up and so it's just one of those business studies that they weren't studying their business and their product. They were just gliding along thinking they owned the business. Somebody came in, upset the apple cart and they just started spending money they didn't have.

37:14

Dave Almy

So how do you prepare your players, the players that you work with on a daily basis for what's sort of tectonic shifting in professional golf? How do you prepare them for what's happening right now? Can you prepare them? Is it just like there's just too much change going on too quickly?

37:34

Mac Barnhardt

No, it's about the next shot you're going to hit. I mean, you just never go past that. I mean, I don't want you thinking about. I don't want you thinking about tomorrow. I want. What shot are you going to hit now? That's just everything that we have to preach is the moment. There's nothing we can do about the future. It's out of our hands right now. I do explain to them that no matter what happens, pro golf will exist. And if the PJ Tour can't pull it off, then there will be another group to pull it off. The pro golf will exist. The demand out in pro golf now, I played with some people yesterday in the business and were talking about versus 20 years ago, how many players could possibly play their way into the top hundred.

38:15

Mac Barnhardt

And I would say there's 20 times as many people as 20 years ago. And now the PGA Tour, because they're getting in the business situation, is restricting play. They've gone for 125 to 100 at a time when every sport is expanding. So yeah, there's going to be a place to play. That's all I tell them. But I. It doesn't, you know, a golf shot's a golf shot. It doesn't matter if it's the last tour of the Masters or if it's a mini tour event. And Waycross, Georgia, and that's what we try to teach them. Don't, don't get caught up in anything past this golf shop. And well, you know, our Navy SEALs go either up next target. And that's kind of what we talk about.

38:54

Dave Almy

I'm with Mac Barnhart. He is a partner in Rock Empire Sports Mac, I want to thank you for spending the time with me today, but before I let you go, I'm going to. I'm going to put you in the lightning round, so just want you brace yourself a little bit. This is going to be a little bit of the blender as far as questions goes, so I just want to make sure you're ready. All right?

39:15

Mac Barnhardt

All right, here we go.

39:17

Dave Almy

As you mentioned earlier, you do have a love for backcountry snowboarding. I enjoy backcountry skiing. So the question is, can we coexist?

39:31

Mac Barnhardt

Yes. Absolutely. I won't hold it against you for having two snowboards.

39:36

Dave Almy

The double. My two narrow snowboards.

39:40

Mac Barnhardt

That's what they are now, buddy. Make the snowboard.

39:43

Dave Almy

You know, I kind of boxed myself in with that question because I should have expected something was going to come back my way. All right, very good. Next one you quoted is saying I could either reinvent the golf business or I could wind up working as a lift operator at Sun Valley. Why would that be a bad thing?

40:01

Mac Barnhardt

Well, I was hoping for the other. Honestly, if. If Russ would stay out of my life now. I'm kidding. But, yeah, I. I don't know if I'd have been a lifty, but I'd have been probably doing something hanging around Sun Valley. Sun Valley is maybe a backcountry God maybe. Yeah.

40:14

Dave Almy

Sun Valley is not a terrible place to hang around. I heading up there in a couple months myself. Most underrated golf course that anyone can access.

40:23

Mac Barnhardt

Most underrated golf course that anyone can access. Most of them are so highly rated. Right. Yeah. You know, I'm gonna. This is a great one. Brunswick Country Club right near here on the islands. And Donald Ross course. It's. It's. Davis redid it to Donald Ross's specs, and it is a fun place that you can play a 1 some or a 9 some.

40:48

Dave Almy

Okay.

40:49

Mac Barnhardt

As we played. As we played there one time, somebody's wiser. Nine people in that group, and we said the 10th guy didn't show up, but yeah, it runs a country club, I'd say right now.

40:58

Dave Almy

Yeah. Very good. Last one. What's the one piece of golf advice you have for someone who's terrible off the te, off the fairway, out of the bunkers and on the green and already one step ahead of you on that one. Mac Varnhardt. Really appreciate the time, man.

41:17

Mac Barnhardt

Thank you. So good to talk to you.

41:20

Dave Almy

Thanks for listening to this episode of the One one Sports business Conversations podcast. If you enjoyed it, we always appreciate a subscribe, share, comment, or like. And don't forget, you can always find past episodes@abcpartners.com podcast this podcast is written, produced, edited and hosted by Dave Almy, and theme music was composed by Scott Holmes.