Mike Nicoll: Writer and Director of "The Spoils"

00:01

Dave A

Mike, youth sports is big business in this country. I think I heard an estimate at one point, probably one of these other podcasts, that it's like, it's a $60 billion industry, but AAU basketball kind of takes it to a whole nother level of what that means. So for people who are unfamiliar with AAU, I think most people have heard of it, sort of understand that's part of this whole youth sports cult subculture. How would you describe it in the context of youth sports?

00:28

Mike N

Wow.

00:30

Dave A

Let's start small.

00:31

Mike N

You know, the description of AAU basketball does not fit neatly onto a business card.

00:36

Dave A

Okay. Yeah.

00:37

Mike N

But to properly describe it, I think you have to situate it in a much broader context.

00:42

Dave A

Okay.

00:43

Mike N

You know, straightforward. It is the developmental system that we here in America employ to filter out and matriculate our best players.

00:53

Dave A

Okay.

00:54

Mike N

You know, it's funny. It's worth noting that, you know, it's understood and known as AAU basketball, but there is an actual organization called the Amateur Athletic Union. They're headquartered in Florida.

01:07

Dave A

Do they have anything to do with AAU basketball?

01:09

Mike N

I'm going to get ready to say they do.

01:11

Dave A

Sorry, I get so excited.

01:12

Mike N

Well, when people say AAU basketball, they are referring to a subculture that the AAUDH itself does not have any affiliation or involvement with.

01:22

Dave A

Huh.

01:23

Mike N

Once upon a time they did. And of course, the AAU runs youth sports, you know, pretty elite youth sports programs for all the sports. But kind of going back to my broader context, in the late eighties, early nineties, for sure, once it became clear that, let's just say the investment in the stars of tomorrow could be seen as, you know, a lottery ticket of sorts. Right? And what you have is scores and sprawling networks of corporations, companies and adults who want to attach themselves to blue chip basketball players because the payoff ultimately can be hundreds of millions of dollars.

02:04

Dave A

So what you're saying is in the eighties and nineties, we're going touch on some of this because it has been an evolution in that moment in the eighties and nineties. And we're going to talk about the involvement of shoe companies, and it's because it feels like you can't have this conversation without talking about their involvement and the impact that they have.

02:22

Mike N

Well, and so that's the jumping in point, right? Because once the sort of, like, money to be made became very obvious, the shoe companies came in and privatized what used to be this AAU system, right? And so now what you have are these very exclusive, very invite only circuits or leagues bankroll. Bankrolled by the shoe companies. And, you know, they are in many. It is a, in many ways, a mandatory recruiting space.

02:49

Dave A

Right.

02:49

Mike N

Whatever your goal in the basketball ecosystem might be, whether it's a d one scholarship, whether it's playing the league, you.

02:55

Dave A

Have to be, you have to be in a, you.

02:58

Mike N

The shoe companies have done a really good job of central. You know, I think originally the spirit of what they were trying to do was to centralize and consolidate all the best players because once upon a time, you know, they were, and we'll get into the interconnectivity of this world. But the, I think one of the main purposes was to corral all the best players and put them in one spot so that the coaches, college coaches, could see them all in one place playing against one another. So there was a very logistical reason for doing it. But, you know, the reality is, I think the best way to describe what AAU basketball has become is this relationship building vacuum, you know, regulation or governing the. It is this space where anyone and everyone is trying to attach themselves to the next LeBron, right.

03:46

Mike N

And, you know, I like to describe it as, like, the escalator to the NBA, but it is really, you know, a factory at this point that has been designed to anoint and ultimately monetize the next superstars.

04:02

Dave A

That's interesting, right? Because an escalator is very passive. You're just sitting on your, riding this, to your point, factories are much more active, right? They are, they are producing product, and that's something else I want touch on a lot because it does come up about the idea of these kids, I mean, being assets and commodities and things like that.

04:21

Mike N

Back it up. I mean, so the film I've made is called the spoils, right? And, you know, I really encourage everybody to go check it out. You can find everything you'd want to know about it@aspoilsmovie.com. And the spoils is really a systemic portrait of the american basketball machine. You know, when you. I hope everyone who listens to this pod goes and checks the movie out. Me, as a director, I've been always waiting, and you're talking about the sort of passive versus active factory nature of it. I, and you guys will see when you go watch the film. I've always been most fascinated with the adults in the room. They're the ones who are pulling strings, right?

04:57

Mike N

And so, you know, it takes a really special teenager to be fully aware of, like, all the dynamics that are going on, but it is the adults sort of on the sidelines, really building and designing the incentives of the system. So I think for any parent and family out there, I think our film, the biggest value proposition is as a navigational blueprint, because I can't tell you how many gyms I've been in where you're parents kind of on the back end of their journey, sort of wistfully muttering to themselves, like, I wish I knew then what I know now.

05:32

Dave A

Right. So we're going to pull back the curtain a little bit. Did you, did you, now, you played competitive basketball as when you were younger, did you play aau?

05:40

Mike N

Oh, yes.

05:41

Dave A

Yeah. Okay, so you were in AAU. When did the Compton magic get on your radar? Because the movie the spoils focuses on this team.

05:54

Mike N

Yeah.

05:55

Dave A

Over a ten year period. So what I'm interested in is when did they become, when did they get on your radar? And then what made you think, boy, I need to attach myself to them?

06:06

Mike N

Well, it's. So I would say as a filmmaker, you know, casting is as important in documentary films as it is advance. Right. The very first film I made was a film called at all costs, and it was kind of 101 deep dive into the AAU world.

06:24

Dave A

Okay.

06:24

Mike N

Thinking at all costs that I got introduced to Ato.

06:27

Dave A

Okay.

06:28

Mike N

Atop and the Compton magic were what I would call a b story in at all costs. But, you know, even then, they were certainly not what they would ultimately become, but they were one of the best programs and certainly you could see the trajectory. So I think for our film, I think one of the many things about it that makes it so special is the access.

06:48

Dave A

Yeah.

06:48

Mike N

So from the beginning, when I met tope, it became very clear to me that he was. I described tope a topobudo Emma, who's the CEO of the conference, as one of the more powerful people in the basketball matrix that most people haven't heard of.

07:02

Dave A

Right.

07:03

Mike N

And, you know, again, his job description does not fit neatly onto.

07:08

Dave A

I mean, I've watched the spoils. I have, I have a list of some of his heaviest titles. Like, I got GM, coach, marketer, deal maker, father figure for the Compton magic, and that is just scratching the surface.

07:22

Mike N

All of those things are true. I think, you know, back before, you know, the. You said it, we covered, we cover eleven years, actually, in the film. And I think that happens to be the most transformational decade in the history of the american basketball landscape.

07:34

Dave A

Completely concur.

07:37

Mike N

But, you know, so, like, one of the fascinating things about our story is, you see it unravel over the course of time when, for the first chunk of it, a lot of these, let's just call them business practices, used to be illegal, and people went to prison for these things, and now they're all completely legal, broad daylight activity. So I always used to describe tope as kind of like an agent for these kids before they could have one.

08:01

Dave A

Right.

08:02

Mike N

Player advocate, you know, advocate for his.

08:05

Dave A

Guys, mentor, guide, whatever name you want to put on. And he kind of plays the role.

08:10

Mike N

The best description I've come up with for tope is he's what I like to call it, a dream facilitator.

08:16

Dave A

Yeah.

08:17

Mike N

And he talks about this very plainly in the film, you know, the end. The relationships are what set him apart. Right. And I like to quote him from the film here, but he's like, you know, he says when you're in an all out war, to really get stuff done, and the nature of that war changes from person to person, player to player situation, because your grasp is going to be so far as your experience. And the reality is that atop knows everybody in every corner of the basketball universe. So no matter where you're trying to go, having somebody with his Rolodex or iPhone contact list, so to speak, is connected. Very well connected, dude.

08:51

Dave A

Yeah.

08:53

Mike N

For me, as a director, I wanted to tell a story about this basketball system.

08:57

Dave A

Yeah.

08:57

Mike N

And casting, you know, him at the center of it, and. And the count of magic at the center really was the best allegory I could come up with, because. For lots of reasons. But, like, once you get into the NBA storytelling space, it is so curated. It is so polished. It is so, speaking of factories propagandized, you know.

09:21

Dave A

Yeah. It's putting. It's putting out an image.

09:23

Mike N

Well, and. But also, too, that the really awesome thing, at least from the way I see the system, is that, like, everything you see about the NBA now is informed by the incentives that are established on the grassroots level. Fully understand the NBA product requires a much deeper fluency in the business dynamics that are established, you know, on the ground floor. And so I. You know, there's just so many reasons why I think our film is unlike any other sports documentary that's ever been made. I know that sounds really grandiose, but I don't really give a shit if there is one, someone please point it out to me. I wish there had been, honestly, from a reference standpoint, but I really ended up modeling the spell much more after the wire and Michael Clayton that had elements of this corporate espionage and system profile.

10:11

Dave A

Since you just brought up the wire, I want to bring up a quote that etope makes Etope again, running some of that Compton magic, which is the subject of the film, the spoils. Yeah, early in the film, we're like ten minutes in and he says, you know, it's a street game. It's really just one step ahead of the dope game. Now, this is early on, right? This is like in. I can't remember what year it was in your filming, but it was, well, our first interview. First interview. That's a pretty remarkable statement when you're talking about ostensibly youth sports. So I'm hoping you can tease that out a little bit because that's how this got started. Like, this was your introduction to the Compton magic. Did that, did a comment like that obviously made it into the film.

10:56

Dave A

So it kind of set you back on your heels a little bit. But was that revelatory or was that like.

11:00

Mike N

Yeah, I know it wasn't revelatory to me. I mean, I've spent my life traveling through this system, so I know it and I played it, you know, aau, high school, college, etc. I didn't play in the NBA, but I'm very up close you with this world. So it didn't surprise me because I knew that to be true. But atop's willingness to be brutally honest with me about it did immediately let me know that I had, I was talking to somebody that was the perfect vessel.

11:32

Dave A

You picked the right guy.

11:33

Mike N

Well, because, again, not to continue gassing up our film, but, like, cast away.

11:39

Dave A

Man, you're at the Exxon station right now. Let's load the tank.

11:42

Mike N

That, Dave, is a very shadowy world, and finding people who are willing to be honest about the way it operates is a really rare thing because there are so many levels of plausible deniability. And, you know, going back to when the movie started, a lot of this stuff was like, at best, unsavory and, you know, at its worst, you know, at least under the legal system, illegal. So, like, what I wanted to do ultimately was tell the truth about american basketball. Like, think, I hope you'll agree. Like, I'm not the kind of filmmaker that likes to shake my finger at the audience and tell them how to feel about something, but what I am here to do is put the truth on the screen.

12:20

Dave A

Right. Whether you like it or not.

12:23

Mike N

If the alarm bells that went off in my head, so to speak, that you referenced, what was this person is the star of this movie because he's going to tell the truth. And that's a really hard thing to find in this world because it's chock full of so much bullshit. And that. That was my goal, was to put reality on screen.

12:42

Dave A

Well, it's also goes back to the point you made earlier when you first started filming this. A lot of this activity that you're talking about was illegal. People were going to do. FBI was investigating. That's covered off in the film. So having someone who was willing and able to be upfront, I mean, you can see where you're drawn to him.

12:56

Mike N

Well, I think also, too, like, when we had our la premiere, were talking in the Q and A, and my producer, Doug, who's a brilliant, producer, and I want to make it clear, too, like, I had such an amazing team with me on this. On this film. It was by no means a one man show, right? But he made the point, or cune. And I think it's really right that, like, a movie, like, the spoils could not be made today, or I think, really ever again. And the reason is, if you look around the sports media landscape now, you know, whether it's the last dance with Michael Jordan, whether it's, you know, the Tom, you know, like, you look now, and, like, every single athlete has their own production company. Netflix, like, all the big players are in, are really.

13:35

Mike N

They understand that the interest in, let's just call it sports, lifestyle sports, you know, behind the scenes. I think that most of that actually. I actually really find most of the content that gets made today, and I hate that word, but it is what.

13:50

Dave A

It is to be complete bullshit because.

13:53

Mike N

They sell it as, like, the way it really is, but what it actually is the version they want you to hear.

13:59

Dave A

That's the curated content.

14:00

Mike N

Curated, polished propaganda. Autobiographies that are these fairy tales that have. That contain no real truth or no real. Have no honesty in them, really, which.

14:12

Dave A

Is if you're going to make a movie where you embed yourself with an organization for ten years, you can't. You can't scrape out just the good parts.

14:23

Mike N

Had somebody come to, let's say, tope or his equivalent today, even on the grassroots level, I know that there's no way that person, whether it was tope or whom his equivalent would say yes, without creative control, final cut approval over x, Y and Z. But I told Aixo from the jump what I was interested in doing and the story I wanted to tell. And I think the fact that we spent so much time with him really allowed for the depth of the story.

14:56

Dave A

That were ultimately giving you built some trust.

14:58

Mike N

Yeah.

15:00

Dave A

So as we've been talking thus far, we build this sense of wildness about AAU basketball and, you know, the things that are happening in shadowy worlds and it's, you know, all these things that are going on. And then it's fascinating to me, too, because, you know, it wouldn't be where it's at without the involvement of the big sneaker companies like the Nikes and the Adidas. And these are organizations that take such care to protect their brands. And yes, they are. And yet they are absolutely intertwined with this, for lack of better, shadowy world and what you're describing in the spoils. So what would the AAU be without Nike and Adidas? Would it even be recognizable to the AU that we see today?

15:51

Mike N

Well, you're sort of indirectly hitting on, I think, what the core question of our film is. Right. Like, I think the most important thing a good film can do is ask the right questions. There is this prevailing idea that because the system is now the way that it is, there's this feeling that like, well, that's the way it's supposed to be.

16:12

Dave A

It evolved into something. It was supposed to be.

16:14

Mike N

The door you're knocking on is what would a more intentional or knowing what we know or given the evolutions of it, what is the sort of optimal design for the american basketball development system? Right. I think that there are lots of things that you could point to suggest that the way we do things is maybe not the best in the world anymore. You could look at the all NBA teams. You could look at the most recent, I think, six NBA MVP's, whether it's Giannis Jokic, Embiid, Luca, Shea. I mean, you can make a real strong argument that five of the seven best players in the league are not american guys. And so I reject that idea that, well, the inertia and momentum of this system, well, it's just how we do it. And so you saying, what would it be without the sneaker companies?

17:12

Mike N

You know, I think that is the question. Right. Because when you look at a system and the way we do in the spoils, you know, you have to ask yourself what it is designed to produce and what it's optimized for. And like I said earlier, the american basketball system is designed to identify, anoint, and then ultimately monetize.

17:35

Dave A

Yeah.

17:36

Mike N

Basket, you know, american basketball prodigies.

17:38

Dave A

Yeah.

17:39

Mike N

Very different optimizations setting. Let's say if you're looking at it from a machine standpoint, then optimizing for the best players, for the player development, for what's best for these players and their families. I think the shoe companies and the major commercial entities that are involved in this system, you ask them, I think they would say, if it's going great.

18:03

Dave A

Just the way we want it.

18:04

Mike N

Just the way we want it. That's the. That's my highest hope for this movie. And the part of why we've designed the distribution strategy, the way that we have is that I want the film to contribute to a more intentional conversation about, like, how do we want american basketball, at its attendant development pipeline, to be built? And, you know, that's a big question. But just this blind acceptance of, like, the way things are, is the way they're supposed to be, I think, is still the bull.

18:31

Dave A

I feel like there's also this, and we touched upon this earlier, there's so many people lining up adjacent to AAU who are particularly interested in that last part of the equation. You talked about the monetization part, whether it's sneaker companies, whether it's future agents, wherever that's going to be played out. And you touch upon that a lot, and you hear these kids, because they're kids.

18:57

Mike N

Yes.

18:58

Dave A

Referred to assets and commodities several times throughout the movies. And that, you know, I'm a dad of kids. Right. It's a little hard to hear a 14 year old being referred to as an asset. But I guess based on what you saw, what's the impact on the players when they're injected into a system that they recognize early on the outcome that's expected?

19:20

Mike N

I don't think that the impact can be measured until they're much older.

19:25

Dave A

Right.

19:26

Mike N

But I would say, and, you know, on the broadest strokes of the sandbox that our story plays in, I think that our film has a lot of profound things to say about the way that we have financialized every corner of modern life. And, you know, if you'll permit me, a little bit of a philosophical musing, I think that.

19:46

Dave A

Lay it on me.

19:47

Mike N

I think America suffers from what I like to call money worship. And another way of saying that is that, like, money is the only thing.

19:54

Dave A

That most people understand, easy to quantify.

19:58

Mike N

It's the only. It's the only language most people speak to their detriment in many cases. But I think that, you know, we're now on our second generation of american math, or maybe third, depending on how you calculate the generational duration of american players worshipping, branding, social media, following, visibility now, nil money, on equal footing with their love for the game. And I've said this a lot when I've been talking about this movie, but I am a absolute believer in the idea that there can only be one main thing. You know, like, again, going back to that philosophical thing, like, you know, worship has a really religious connotation to it as a word. I if you look it up in the dictionary, it simply means to obsessively turn your consciousness towards.

20:55

Mike N

And a friend and mentor of mine said to me once, Mike, if you want to figure out what you worship, make a list of all the things that you think about during the day and put them into a pie chart. And the thing that has the biggest chunk of the pie is the thing.

21:10

Dave A

That you worship donuts.

21:12

Mike N

Whether it's.

21:13

Dave A

Whether.

21:13

Mike N

Whether it's done, whether it's your relationship, whether it's your job, whether it's, like, I think if everyone's honest with themselves and they actually did this exercise, they would be. I don't know, I would want everyone to be living a life where they're proud and happy with the thing that.

21:27

Dave A

They worship, how their pie chart fleshes out.

21:30

Mike N

ages. And when we're teaching: 1112

22:30

Mike N

And I'm not here to say that it's the wrong note, and it's this. This evolution in the system is long overdue. These players have been getting taken advantage of for decades. Get the money right, because when you're.

22:42

Dave A

A commodity, when you're an asset, if you're no longer an attribute or providing value, you're discarded.

22:50

Mike N

As we say very plainly in the movie, the value that underpins the system lives inside the players. So that they've been exploited for decades in these, like, pretty monstrous ways is an undeniable fact that I'm not here to dispute. So when you talk about it in, you know, in tv, Internet, all these sort of podcasts, all these conversations, that's the only thing that people have to say, get the money. Right? Right. When you, though, migrate this conversation to a family and a parent. And Dave, what kind of pathway do you want to design for your children? At what point and at what stage do you want capitalism in its rawest form to be intersecting with your children's childhood and self identity and concept? It's an entirely different, much more grounded, real conversation.

23:41

Mike N

Because I don't know about you, I've got now two girls, two daughters. They're both under two. So this is still a decade away. But like, what the fuck does a twelve year old know about their brand? And asking them to consider these things as they mature is.

23:58

Dave A

But that's probably the most fascinating part of the fact that you were with this team for ten years, because during that ten year time, as we've talked about, there's some pretty monumental things happen. Yeah. While you're there, right though, the rise of the influencer economy, the capability for players to generate income through name, image, likeness. So how do those things impact and really the dynamic between player and team? Because the thing that we're talking about with influencer economy and name, image, likeness is very individual. And you're talking about a basketball team.

24:36

Mike N

You're, you're hitting on a really core idea of our film. I think book Richardson says it outright in the movie. The legacy to me of AAU basketball is the way that it has individualized a beautiful team game. Yeah. And when we're talking about the opportunity cost of this evolution, honestly, again, I mean, you know, I just had my second child, so maybe today I'm just thinking in much broader, more macro terms. But like Dave to tell me, I mean, I don't know. I think one of the most important lessons that a human being can learn in life is that this shit's not about you. It's really not like being part of something that is bigger than yourself.

25:21

Dave A

Right. It's like an ideal that we look at sports and saying to be a member of sacrifice, part of a group and pulling together for a common goal.

25:32

Mike N

Most of the problems people have in adulthood are rooted in their self centeredness. The idea, the challenges they face are generally linked to the shit's not going my way and it should be. And it's. And the resistance they have to their inability to exert their self will to bend life to their wishes as if it's about them and it's not. And like, it's about being part of a group, it's about being part of something bigger than yourself. It's about being of service and of helping other people. And like, the great spiritual irony by the way of all of this is that by adopting that approach to life, I've found you actually end up getting a lot more of what you want rather than being out to serve yourself at every single term.

26:23

Mike N

And like, the more that we bake in this me first individualized approach to young generations of kids, I don't think that's the best way to be doing it. And I know that we're like pretty far field of the business mechanics here in this conversation.

26:40

Dave A

And it's all part of the same thing though, right? Because you're talking about something that's just the basketball team concept. The way it's constructed as a microcosm of society is a larger construct, for sure. Wow.

26:51

Mike N

And also too, though. But the reality on the ground is if you talk to a lot of like college assistant coaches, because let's be real, the statistics are what they are. Some infinitesimal percentage of kids are going to have even a sniff of the NBA.

27:05

Dave A

Sure.

27:06

Mike N

So underneath that is division one college basketball. That is a much broader lane of opportunity. And I'm telling you, if you talk to 90% of these college coaches, the assistants and the head coaches that are in these, you know, at the UIBL, in these AAU premier spaces, they will tell you that, you know, short of the like top ten guys that are going to make the league, they are looking for guys who can play a role and can like fit into a team concept and like are willing to go set a screen and cut off the ball and play hard and shut in, rotate and play healthy. Like, these are the things that they want. But like, you walk into an AAU basketball gym and it's all this ISO fucking clear out. Like, let me get my, you know, three dribble step back.

27:51

Dave A

I gotta, I gotta get my content from a reels.

27:53

Mike N

Well, that's. And we haven't even gotten into the sort of like media apparatus that has grown up around this. You want to talk about the, what I call the ball is lifeification of american basketball. But like, again, there's just so many manifestations of this, but it's all, they're all symptoms of this individualization.

28:08

Dave A

I'm with Mike Nicole. He's the writer and director of the movie the spoils you can find it on thespoils.com. Right. Spoils.com. Spoilsmovie.com spoilsmovie.com spoilsmovie.com. It's a terrible podcast. That was when he's losing the URL for the thing. It's just terrible. But going back to the point you're just making, right, this, because it's another quote in the movie that kind of goes, made me, you know, put my hand in my head and go, I don't know how you do this, because one of the Compton guy Compton magic team coaches says, we're looking to maximize the individual brand within a team concept. How the hell do you strike that balance right? I mean, how do you and team, how do the teams struggle with. We could create a team.

28:50

Dave A

We still have to go out, win these tournaments, but you have a bunch of players who, with their own individual interests. I mean, that's a tough needle to thread.

28:59

Mike N

I don't think you can thread it. I mean, you can, you can generate, quote unquote, team success, which they've certainly had with the Compton magic.

29:10

Dave A

Sure. They certainly have.

29:12

Mike N

By assembling the most amount of talent one team. You know, they've won champ. Obviously, they're the best. I think they're the best AU team in the country. They want, they want undisputed national championship and a really rare thing.

29:25

Dave A

The record certainly stands. For sure.

29:27

Mike N

For sure. And so they've had a lot of team success. So I wouldn't sit here and say that the Compton Magic as a team have not had a lot of success, and I would.

29:36

Dave A

But I would also think that, you.

29:37

Mike N

Know, I think that tope's north star is getting his players where they need to go.

29:42

Dave A

Did you watch him struggle with figuring out how to strike that balance? Because he kind of goes through a little bit of a transformation. Not even a little bit of a transformation. A lot of. Bit of a transformation during the movie. Right?

29:52

Mike N

Yeah.

29:52

Dave A

Kind of starts off as a guy, hey, I really want to get scholarships for these players to being kind of at the center of grassroots basketball. I mean, at one point, he's, I don't want to give things away, but, I mean, he's kind of, like, at the center of creating whole new apparatus. I mean, how did he change and how did your relationship change over the course of this movie?

30:13

Mike N

Well, I don't want to speak for Tokyo because he's a grown man and, you know, perfectly capable of doing so himself. I will say I am very proud of the honesty in this movie. It's again going back to the sort of allegory that this world is for broader american culture. I mean, like, the more success you have and the more gravity brings you into the upper echelons. Like your criteria changes. Right. And he says it himself. Right. Like, the more success they've had, you know, he has to. Part of his professional obligation to Adidas is to get the better kids on his team. And, you know, just unraveling that, like recruiting the best players, having the, in the raw sense, his ability to have the best players in his area or in the country wear Adidas stuff, because that is the point.

31:09

Mike N

That is why Adidas sponsors the teams, is to have them in Adidas gear and be brand ambassadors, which we should talk about in a second. He has to be able to deliver what these player, individual players and families want. So how he manages that, I think, is a thing to behold.

31:31

Dave A

You know, it's part of his artistry, isn't it?

31:34

Mike N

Yeah. He's a really special guy. Going back to the casting, there's no. There's only one tope. As Todd Ramizzar, an NBA agent in the film, says, there's only one tope and. But how did I see him change? Of course. I mean, look, I think I would hope that I met him when he was, I think, in his early forties and he's in his mid fifties now. So I would think that we've all grown, changed, you know, from decade to decade. You know, he sees the Compton magic as a community organization, and his North Star is always, as he says, trying to put scholarships in the hood. Now, I think the challenge he's under now is that, like, new generations are maybe interested in different things.

32:19

Dave A

I was going to say our scholarships, even the motivating factor, that's the thing.

32:26

Mike N

That'S harder to adapt to as this sort of movable feast continues to get just more sprawling. I mean, the things now that he has to deliver and offer players had changed a lot. Right? So before the only real metric for success was, did he get you a scholarship? Did he put you on the right stage?

32:48

Dave A

Now that now it becomes much different, doesn't it become much different?

32:51

Mike N

And that's an area where, you know, he would have to speak for himself. But I did see the things that he was chasing change with the rise.

33:01

Dave A

Of nil, does the power then shift away from toe do? I mean, you have. I mean, let's face it. I mean, this, the new generation, I'm assuming the younger people, they're more the most sophisticated marketers and brand marketers I've ever seen in my entire life. They understand the power of who they are and building their brands and stuff like that.

33:21

Mike N

So the answer, I think, is yes. There's a point in the third act of our film where I don't want to give it too much of it away here. Sure. Hey, that there is. I think there are lots of new tools available to players to level up what I would call their self sovereignty and hope in a very forward thinking move, began chasing this new partnership that would allow exposure for his players to a particular financial tool. That is pretty revolutionary in my mind. But in the context of discussing why that partnership is so important, the bill says ultimately these guys are not going to need a middleman anymore. I don't mean this in a pejorative way, but, like, going back to the way we. Where we started in terms of how you describe to.

34:05

Mike N

Right, agent, dream, facilitator, mentor, father figure, et cetera, middleman is another word that applies.

34:13

Dave A

Sure.

34:15

Mike N

And I think that the entire economy is evolving to a place where middlemen are less and less required wired. Right. Because if you go back to the way it used to be designed and all of the illegalities versus the legal part, like, middlemen were really crucial components. Linchpins, if you will.

34:31

Dave A

Well, they controlled information. That's how you're a middleman. Right.

34:34

Mike N

They control the information. They control the access. They control relationships. They control all their connectors. Right.

34:39

Dave A

Everything's a bit flatter now.

34:40

Mike N

It's. It's, yeah. So this is sort of inextricably tied to, like, where the whole culture is going and, like, part of, again, that broader conversation about, like, what a more intentional structure for it would be. But, yeah, I think that there's no question that I don't want to say top is less important than he used to be, but the purpose he serves.

35:02

Dave A

Has changed so much. And probably he's found he needs to work harder than he ever has with the number of competing interests. And also the players that he needs to recruit have a much different set of expectations.

35:19

Mike N

One thing I will say, I mean, I have. I have a lot of respect for top. I mean, he's the best in the business for a reason, as, I mean, like, trust me, being on the road with him for a decade, like, he's on flights all over, like, all over the country all the time, and not just during the summer. Right. He says it in, as in one of the building films. He's like, whether I'm on a flight to Arizona on Monday, like, what he's saying is, like, he's flying to Arizona to talk to the Arizona staff. Let's say.

35:49

Dave A

Yeah, yeah.

35:49

Mike N

About how his feelings on the way they're treating his players. Right. Like, it's those kinds of visits. Right? Like, it's not just the travel teams, the trips to the tournaments and this and that.

35:58

Dave A

It's like, he is not hands off. He's.

36:01

Mike N

He's going to his players games that are in the NBA. He's. He's in the NBA arenas, he's in the college arenas. Like, it's a full year thing, and he's all over the place. And so, you know, if adapting is mandatory, it's. It's certainly within his, it's in his toolset. So I wouldn't put anything past hope. He's a one one.

36:20

Dave A

Mike Nicol, you clearly love the sport of basketball. I mean, you played it as a kid. You've made two movies about it. The latest called the Spoils. You're embedded with it, AAU team for ten years. I mean, you clearly love it. What's your ultimate takeaway from this as you take a step back and look at youth basketball in the US today? Is it shrug your shoulders and it's the way it is, there's too much money embedded into it, or, you know, is it good for the players? What's, what's your, what are your big takeaways as you sort of exit this process and now put the product up on the screen?

36:57

Mike N

I, you know, I get asked, you know, after the success of my first film at all costs, which Netflix acquired, and it sort of made me the basketball filmmaker guy.

37:08

Dave A

Hey there, basketball filmmaker guy.

37:10

Mike N

Yeah, I've done a lot. And truthfully, Dave, I don't want to be telling. I don't want to be in the basketball world forever.

37:16

Dave A

Yeah.

37:17

Mike N

And so I designed the spoils to be sort of my, like, full testimony on this world. I think that it's as deep and robust as any film has been when it comes to this. So the reason I say all that is my takeaways and what I have to say about this world, it's. Everything that I have to say is in this movie. The powers that be air quotes are not going to change this system. Right. Like, working really well for them. So that's why I believe that any real change has to happen inside the family and the priorities and at a family and player level. And that's why I designed the movie that the way that I did, because I really think and hope and believe it can be an invaluable resource for families.

38:05

Mike N

Hundreds of thousands of families who go headlong into this system and have no idea how it works, and 90% of them are in the middle of an ocean swimming with no paddle. And so I really hope that this movie can function as a roadmap that can help them solve this landscape, because the chaos and the complicated complexities of this world are very much on purpose. Yeah, it's complicated for a reason. You have no prayer of hitting a target that you're not aiming at. Zero. So I think that players and families have to be extremely intentional about what and honest with themselves about what they want out of the system. You know, you hear, you know, like from the wire, like, you hear phrases like use the system before it uses you.

38:51

Mike N

Well, you have no chance of using the system, bending it to your benefit if you don't know how it works.

38:57

Dave A

If you don't even already know you're in a system.

38:59

Mike N

The difference between optimizing for my son or daughter, falling in love with the game and really putting the soul of the game first is very different than chasing money, nil deals, recruiting, and I'm not saying recruiting zone important, but I cannot tell you, I mean, look at the transfer portal. I mean, like, I can't tell you how many dudes I see take offers the places that are just the wrong places for them, but it's because they're optimizing for prestige or, you know, they want to post the 100% committed, you know, social Instagram flyer thing and get.

39:42

Dave A

All the lights for the gramden doing.

39:44

Mike N

It for the, like, whatever it is. And it's just, it's like, okay, a scholarship is great, but at the place that's wrong for you that you're not going to play or that, you know what? And it's just like, so again, it is.

39:55

Dave A

The incentives are all screwed up.

39:57

Mike N

The incentives are totally fucked. And I think that the only real change ultimately, I mean, if we want to talk on an organizational level, I think that there's some room for USA Basketball to exert more influence on this space. Of course, the NBA, Adam Silver at the all star game every year comes out and talks about the NBA wanting to get involved more downstream, but there's not any real action there, I don't think so. Like, it has to be on the player and family level.

40:24

Dave A

Yeah. For them to force change by pushing up rather than waiting for someone else to push down.

40:28

Mike N

I don't think it's even really about forcing change. I think it's just about getting what you need. But I think that most people don't take a real honest inventory about what they need, what they want. I think that's what I'm saying. Like, they just get sucked into the vortex of this gravity of this machine.

40:42

Dave A

Right. They don't even know why it's pulling them.

40:44

Mike N

And if you don't have a really long term vision for what you want, you're going to look back on ten or 20 or 50 short term, short sighted decisions that landed you in this spot, and you're going to wake up one day and be like, how did I get here?

41:00

Dave A

I'm with Mike Nickel. He's writer and director of the spoils. You can see it at the spoilsmovie.com dot. Mike, I want to really say thanks very much for spending the time today. A thought provoking conversation on a lot of different levels. Highly recommend people to go to the spoilsmovie.com, after what? There are several oh, wow. Moments over the course of the movie. That if you're involved in sports business, if you're involved in youth sports at all, will definitely open your eyes a bit to what is can only be described as a monumental part of youth sports culture today. So, Mike, thank you for the time, but I. Before I let you go, I gotta put you in the lightning round. Do it, Mike. You ready? Get these. Are. You don't know what's about to happen, do you? No idea.

41:45

Dave A

Like, the look of panic on your face is palpable. All right, here we go. A couple quick questions for you. All right. Other than the spoils or any basketball movie that you've made, what's the other best basketball movie ever made? Fiction or nonfiction?

41:58

Mike N

Wow. I would say that the film that made the most impact, the biggest impact on me as a kid was probably blue chips.

42:04

Dave A

Okay? Blue chips. You can see a lot of connectivity.

42:06

Mike N

Obviously, that's a scripted film, but that movie was bold and it knew what it was.

42:14

Dave A

All right, Mike, I'm going to stop here. This is the lightning round. Mike, we're supposed to be sorry you graduated from USC film school already. We don't have to go back.

42:23

Mike N

You got some build, nerd. Let's keep going.

42:25

Dave A

All right. Speaking of which, you are a USC film. Aluminum.

42:28

Mike N

Yes, sir.

42:28

Dave A

Caleb Williams was the USC quarterback and was the number one pick in the. In the draft for the NFL. How's he going to do in this year?

42:37

Mike N

I have a lot of friends who are bears fans for their emotional well being, I hope. Well, but I will say undergrad. I went to the University of Michigan, so it is go blue forever.

42:48

Dave A

Okay.

42:49

Mike N

Simply remind you that we are the reigning national champions.

42:52

Dave A

Oh, boy. I guess that was inevitable to happen. Ken Burns gave you and the movie a shout out question. Did you faint?

42:59

Mike N

Ken Burns? Yes, he did faint. I faint. I still. For Ken Burns to come out and stamp this movie was surreal. Surreal. Just. I joked with my wife when it happened. If something cooler ever happens in my career, things will have gone astronomically. Right.

43:20

Dave A

And, well, appearing on this podcast, as we've discussed, you play competitive basketball.

43:25

Mike N

Yeah.

43:25

Dave A

What was your one unstoppable move?

43:28

Mike N

Ooh, I would say two dribble. Well, two dribble pull up going left for mid range. And I had a nice little spin move, too. That was a nice counter. So, yeah, all right, a couple.

43:40

Dave A

Last one. You're going to the movies?

43:43

Mike N

Yeah.

43:44

Dave A

What's your go to snack order?

43:46

Mike N

Wow.

43:47

Dave A

They don't teach you this in USC film school?

43:50

Mike N

Great question.

43:51

Dave A

Go to snack order, go into the concession stand. They're standing in front of you, long line behind you.

44:00

Mike N

It's racist.

44:01

Dave A

Reese's paint up on our cops. You and my wife. Mike Bickle, he is the writer and director of the spoils. You can find it at the spoilsmovie.com. Mike, thanks for the time, Dave.

44:12

Mike N

Thank you for the kind words and the tie. This was fun.