From Gridiron to Grow Room: NFL Legend Marvin Washington's Cannabis Advocacy

01:40

Dave Almy

Marvin, you played 11 seasons in the NFL, and that's a remarkably long career for an industry, I think, where the average is more like four to five years. And during that time, obviously, you have a fair share, like everybody, injuries and things like that. So I want, if you can, to get us started. Can you talk about just how much pain management is part of a player's reality, particularly when you played in the 90s. So what's that experience like for the average player?

02:16

Marvin Washington

Well, whether I played in the 90s or 60s or today, it's part of it. You know, they were talking about last week for the AFC Championship Games, they were talking about guys that were nicked up and banged and hurting, and first thing that popped into my mind was, everybody's hurting at this Point of the season. And you know, pain, opiates, benzodiazepine is part of the NFL's players regime to get him through the season. Now the season is even longer. 17 games gone. 16 games. So starting from August, you start that with the anti inflammatories and what have you. And you have pain. If you need pain pills and what have you. Opiates, that's part of it.

03:01

Marvin Washington

You know, it's just that doing it over 16, 17 weeks and then if you take my career 10, 11 years and you all of a sudden cut that off, a lot of guys can't cut that spigot off. And then that's where you run into the problems at. But I don't know how players can play without taking pain pills because I don't know if you can see my finger, but.

03:25

Dave Almy

Okay, so this is an audio format and I'm just going to say to everybody that Marvin just held up his finger and that is not a normally shaped finger.

03:35

Marvin Washington

Okay. Yeah. And this happened in week three of the season. And I had to play through it. You know, during the week I walked around with a splinter and a makeshift sort of the cast, but during the games I had to take it off and get a shot up and play. That's just the reality of the NFL.

03:53

Dave Almy

And it's, I mean, it's clearly has to be cumulative too. Right. Because if you have an injury in week three, you're dealing with that pain through weeks four through 16. Now 17. So I'm assuming then the teams have to find new ways to help you perform while continuing to block out that pain. So I'm assuming the treatments become more and more extreme. Is that the right word?

04:22

Marvin Washington

It all depends. Like if it's a lower extremity, me, what happens is upper body injuries, they didn't bother me too much.

04:29

Dave Almy

Okay.

04:30

Marvin Washington

But everybody needs their legs, you know, and you know, say I had a sprain, a high ankle sprain. They're usually three to four weeks. But I came back after two weeks because went to the extreme with the treatment. Went out to regular therapy or western therapy. We went to acupuncture, we did deep tissue massages, we did hot and cold treatment and plus the form of Suncoast too.

04:57

Dave Almy

Well, and that's where this conversation ends up having to turn, right? Because at some point the, let's call them more natural treatments, the hot and colds, the massages, the acupunctures, while they can be effective, they are going to lose their efficacy, particularly when you're talking about the extremes. So then a lot of players probably are introduced to what you talked about earlier, opioids as pain treatment in their careers. To be able to do that. Is that the message the teams give you is like, okay, we'll take this now, and that's going to help you manage the pain?

05:30

Marvin Washington

Yes, but I was used to it because I also played in college. You know, the thing is that people don't realize that professional football players and people with contact sports, they're introduced to these at 17, 18, and then they go through college and they're handed out just as frequently as they are in the NFL because you're hitting, you still hitting your head, still banging your body, still doing that thing, and having these collisions at 15, 20, 30 miles an hour, whether it's college, whether it's NFL, and if you gather a room full of people, of 100 people and you ask them, have they taken opium, Percocets, Vicodin, Tylenol, threes, how many would raise their hand? I think it would be in the minority. But if you did it with football players, you'll see that it's the majority of guys.

06:20

Marvin Washington

And that's just the way it is, man. And that's why, you know, we'll talk about it. That's why I'm doing what I'm doing.

06:26

Dave Almy

Right. So this is it. Right. So opioids become sort of the necessary evil in order for players to be able to continue to participate in the sport. And that begins at 17 and 18 years old. And I think, as even the casual observer today knows now, that when you're exposed to those drugs, hard drugs, at a younger age, that has a pretty profound impact on you. Right. They're highly addictive. They become a shortcut towards adjusting and managing that pain. But that's how, at that time and today, to a certain extent as well, players manage their pain. It was dealing and using these drugs from, like you said, 17 years old. And it's pervasive, correct?

07:17

Marvin Washington

Well, I think there's. I don't think the NFL, their team, trainers and doctors know any other way.

07:24

Dave Almy

Right.

07:24

Marvin Washington

You know, it's the tool that they have. It's the tool that they have. And I can have a larger conversation about the team doctor, you know, and who he's putting first, because they're trying to get you back on the field. You know, for the NFL team, you're a commodity, and, you know, your. Your best ability is your availability, and they're going to want you back on that field. And you feel the pressure Internal pressure yourself, because you don't want to let down your teammates. You don't let down the coaches that you know are counting on you. So you do what you can to get back on the field.

07:53

Dave Almy

But that's also the doctor. Right. He works for the team, so his might not always be looking out for your best interests in this equation. Right. It's. He's kind of a conflicted character.

08:04

Marvin Washington

I know this is. This is audio, but when I say I put it in air quotes, Team doc, I put it in, he turns.

08:13

Dave Almy

In with some slightly mangled fingers.

08:15

Marvin Washington

Yeah, that's the whole thing is it's the team doctor, and his fiduciary duty is not to you and they're supposed to be to you, but it's to the team. And they're going to do everything they can to get you back down out on that field and make you perform at, you know, your highest ability.

08:34

Dave Almy

So you play throughout the 90s, end up winning a Super bowl with the. With the Denver Broncos, I'm assuming. And then pain is sort of a constant, managing it. At what point in your career did cannabis first get on your radar as an alternative means to address some of the issues, some of the pain that you were experiencing?

08:54

Marvin Washington

So my experience with cannabis is, you know, I'm generation X, one of the first generation acts, and it's the best.

09:01

Dave Almy

Generation, by the way.

09:02

Marvin Washington

Oh, with. Without question. But I grew up with older brothers and sisters, and I was introduced to it early. Not using, just being around and what have you. Yeah, and I played high school basketball and I used to smoke, you know, before the games because he calmed me down, get me into my zone. I could blank out the crowd and the pressure of basketball and shoot free throws and all that. That's when I started using them. Once I went to college, I stopped in the NFL. I didn't do it because, you know, the NFL was just like high school. I was with the. The Brewers. I drunk a lot of beer. But I knew guys that did. And we go over, you know, after practice sometime, you know, you go over guys house and play some video games.

09:48

Marvin Washington

Guys, we have an assess session right there. I didn't understand the reason why they were doing it, you know, because I just thought, hey, they. I got my beer, they got their cannabis and what have you. But I always say, like, guys using cannabis, nobody was getting high just to get high. Everybody was getting high, feel better. And that goes for everybody in society, David. Nobody's just smoking cannabis to get that psychotropic effect. They want to Feel better. And that's why I've come to the conclusion, and I know everybody in this industry come to the conclusion that cannabis is medicine.

10:25

Dave Almy

Yeah. Was there a point where you went like, okay, just smoking for, you know, social purposes and things like that where the ability of it like wow, this is really decreasing some of the pain that I've been experiencing in the past and things like that. Was there a moment that you kind of realized that.

10:44

Marvin Washington

Well, I just know the guys that smile smoke cannabis, they were on less of the anti inflammatories because I was eating naprosin Anderson, like they were candy, you know. And you know, they come in the next day and I would have to go get my. Take my coffee and take my anti inflammatories. But they didn't, I didn't put the two and two together at the time. I think their bodies for them. And if you talk to some of the guys that actively did it, like Ricky Williams and Cal Turley and what have you is they'll tell you about the medicinal benefits of cannabis on their body and how let them recover more and they didn't have to take the, you know, like I said, I walked around in my pocket with anti inflammatories, you know, and they work.

11:29

Marvin Washington

But if I would have known then to a natural alternative, I definitely would.

11:33

Dave Almy

Have taken and suffice it to say that the NFL particularly at that period of time, and this has changed recently, but the NFL at that period of time, cannabis was no fly zone. That is, that was a tested drug. It was. I mean you could get suspended for using cannabis back.

11:50

Marvin Washington

You could get fined and suspended and the guys did. But let me say something about the NFL's drug policy back then. Yeah, it was more of an intelligence test because you knew when you were going to get tested.

12:01

Dave Almy

Okay. Right.

12:02

Marvin Washington

The guys that were smoking, they would stop smoking like a month before training camp, a couple weeks before training camp. And then that night walking through the dorm, you knew the testing was over because you could smell it in the air.

12:15

Dave Almy

So it was more or less an intelligence. If you get caught using cannabis, you don't deserve to play in the NFL.

12:21

Marvin Washington

Because that was going to be your own test. It's going to be your only test. And they care more about the, about performing enhancing drugs like steroids and what have you.

12:31

Dave Almy

Right, exactly. So I'm wondering when then you started to become aware of cannabis was making you feel better. You could use less of the pharmaceuticals in order to do this. So when did it Go from being like, okay, I'm just using it to being an advocate for it. Was there a catalyst moment for you?

12:50

Marvin Washington

utside of high school. And in: 2011

12:59

Dave Almy

Okay, this is after the playing career is over.

13:02

Marvin Washington

This is way after playing.

13:03

Dave Almy

Way after. Okay, Yeah.

13:04

Marvin Washington

I went from beer to scotch by then.

13:06

Dave Almy

Okay, all right. So a different sort of medicine approach.

13:11

Marvin Washington

At a golf tournament about somebody saying about cannabis and how I could protect the brain and what have you. And I went back out to the country club the next week, and we had lunch, and he was telling me about it and cbd. And I was a neuroprotectant for the brain, this, that, and the other. I did not know this. So I signed on with them, like, a couple of weeks later. And this is when the NFL concussion lawsuits were happening. What. Whatever. And there were still guys, I think junior, say I just committed suicide or what have you. Once I did a deep dive into this deal and was around the cannabis community and these cannabis doctors and nurses and people that were proficient about it and held it a professional way. I was, like, amazing.

13:58

Marvin Washington

My mind was blown, and I just learned more and more about it. And I got really good at speaking about it and becoming an advocate for athletes and trying to give CBD and out to my teammates that were still ex. Teammates that were still taking opiates and they hadn't played it down in 15 and 20 years, and they were still taking Vicodin. They were still. They were still taking painkillers for the pains that they had in their body. And I was like, here's an alternative. Here's an alternative.

14:30

Dave Almy

Did you have people, athletes that you spoke to push back against cannabis as a tool because of just the way it's perceived?

14:43

Marvin Washington

I had one guy do that. One guy. Everybody else, either they're using it or they can of curious, as we call it. But the whole thing is, have I received some pushback? No. No. Because here's the whole thing with me is like, David, I played in the NFL for 11 years.

15:03

Dave Almy

Yeah.

15:03

Marvin Washington

I did my job every day. I didn't get into bar fights, any DWIs, beat women, whatever. And I went into a professional, not a. I went into corporate America at football. So when I picked the phone to call these trainers, to call the nflpa, they'll go, oh, it's Marvin Washington. And they know I'm not asking them for anything.

15:23

Dave Almy

Right.

15:23

Marvin Washington

You know, and that's how they will pick up my phone, pick up the phone call for me because I'm not asking for anything. I'm not trying to sell them anything. Like the quarterback from Green Bay, the ex quarterback, the legendary quarterback from Green Bay that was trying to getowski. The one after that. The one after that.

15:44

Dave Almy

The one after the Magic man.

15:46

Marvin Washington

Yeah. Was trying to sell the NFLPA on some concussion water. And I thought that was. And. But he had enough. He had enough skins on the wall where he could pick up the phone and they would have a conversation with them. But I wasn't trying to do that. What I was trying to do. And I think we accomplished that as a collective with some of the other guys. If we got the NFL to raise their level that guys can be tested for. Raise it up to what? World Anti Doping Association. Raise it up to their level to where if a guy tests positive, then he just. He just used it.

16:22

Marvin Washington

You know, that's why the standard now since Shakari Richardson or whatever, and then cut out these fines and suspended guys behind this plant, you know, because it's humiliating, it's degrading and it's behind the times, you know, And I've been down to D.C. And I've pounded on them, pounded on it to now. It was if, if. Now I think it's just a win now, you know, for them to fully embrace it and let guys medicate with.

16:51

Dave Almy

Does seem to be one of the cultural issues. Because let's not pretend that cultural issues are not part of cannabis. And legalizing it does seem like it's one of those cultural issues that has sort of turned the corner from being something to be concerned about to every. You know, why are we even still worrying about this right now?

17:16

Marvin Washington

As you see more and more states come aboard. But the fight is not over, you know, because sometime in the cannabis industry we get to go to these conferences and what have you. I say, guys, we're preaching to the choir, you know, right. I'm in Texas and when I told a lady about 5 years ago I was in cannabis, she literally clutched her pearl.

17:32

Dave Almy

There was a. There was a pearl clutching moment. Oh, no.

17:34

Marvin Washington

Yeah, yeah.

17:35

Dave Almy

Oh, my stars and garters.

17:37

Marvin Washington

And when you talk to people, there are still people you talk to. And I was talking to another lady and she was an educator. I don't want to around kids and use up. It's like the kids use it. You know, the kids that have cancers and then they have these seizures or what have you. They use it. You know, the whole thing is education, education. And one of the things I was blown away with Leaf, well, is. Is the research and stats that they have the backup and show you how it's a net plus for people that use it and use it in a responsible way. And we have to get this out not only to sports organization, but society in general, man. Because I would rather see cannabis in the medicine cabinet than.

18:22

Marvin Washington

Or on your nightstand in your bedroom because, you know, when you go into the older generation's bedroom, they got a plethora of pills over there. I would rather see them have some cannabis over there and less of those pills than the opus and benzodiazepine that society is killing themselves with.

18:40

Dave Almy

I'm wondering if you have any stories about players that you've helped move or educate about the difference between traditional pain management and using cannabis. I mean, is there anybody or you don't have to names or anything like that, but I'm wondering the change in their own physicality, mental state of getting off of or reducing the opiates and things like that for instead of cannabis.

19:10

Marvin Washington

I had a ex teammate in Georgia that we got off of a bike and through a combination of cbd and thc and he's taking gummies and tinctures, not smoking and what have you. And he cut down and he went cold turkey a couple years ago. And now he's a big proponent of cannabis as a plant. And I, he won't tell me, you know, because men are prideful, whatever. But I got a call from his wife and his wife was thanking me and I was like, no, we're all in this together. This is what we do. Because I don't own this plant, man. I'm just trying to educate people and that's one of my success stories. But I can give you 10 more. Not like that, but where I've introduced guys to cannabis and what have you. And yeah, it's.

20:01

Marvin Washington

It's made the quality of their life better. I was just on the phone yesterday. A guy in Tennessee called me and he was going from the doctor and he's. He's in pain and he wanted me to see him, send him some cbd and some. And I said, I sent it to. I can, I can't send THC over, you know, in Tennessee because I don't want to go you to go to prison, but I'm going to send him some really high quality cbd. And we had. It was the education. This guy's my age and he lives in Tennessee. He played in the south and lives in the south, what have you. And he knows the restriction of it. But he was like, marvin, I've tried everything.

20:40

Marvin Washington

He said, but I want to get off of these, you know, high blood pressure and the cholesterol and whatever. And I said, well, you know, take the CBD and combine it with. Of course. And we had about 30 minute conversation. And I wish you wouldn't because the game was on, but you gotta go.

20:57

Dave Almy

When the opportunity presents itself. I get it.

20:58

Marvin Washington

Yeah, yeah. But yeah, he's my next guy, you know, and he's as straight laced as you come, but he's at the end of his rope. And those are type of calls that I get.

21:09

Dave Almy

Is the stigma still a thing? And I'm using my own air quotes now with, is that one of the hurdles that players have to get over?

21:21

Marvin Washington

You know, for guys in our generation and the boomers, the stigma can be a thing. Like I said, once you educate guys and tell them about the medicinal benefits of this plant and use it as a medicine, that goes down. And on the younger generation, they're pretty much there's no more stigma with them. What I'm running into now is more people falling about on the federal scheduling of it and still illegal on the federal level. But you know, Leaf, well, is going into municipalities and school districts and what have you. And as we get more and more of that, then the stigma is going to fall. I was talking to a police detective who's the head of his township's police union. Well, I'm not going to mention the town, sure. But he, he said, marvin, we're interested in it.

22:14

Marvin Washington

He said, but the city and the state, they won't allow it. He said, but send me some information about police department and towns that have successfully did it. And he said, and I can use this as fodder and take it back to the township and see if we can get it negotiated in our cba. And so I've been doing that and I'm going, when I see him at dinner in a couple of weeks, I'm going to give him that information. And I think that's how it's going to happen. You know, town by town, grassroots, school district by school district, sports organization by sports organization.

22:49

Dave Almy

Yeah. So let's talk about Leaf. Well, you've mentioned Leafwell a couple of times now, but what I'm hoping you can do is talk a little bit about the nature of the organization and how you decided to partner with them. Why was that relationship a good one for you and the right move for you?

23:08

Marvin Washington

Well, the leaf well is a kind of care company that does telemedicine. And when I got on the phone with Emily Fisher, the founder, Dr. June Chen, the CMO chief medical officer, I was blown away about what they're doing, how they're doing and where this is going. Because of this is something that were hoping for in cannabis and been talking about for the last 10 years about the normalization of the plant and what they're doing with the doctors, with the research and going into municipalities and towns along with the insurance company. It's normalized. That's what Leafwell is doing. And I think this is the next jump of cannabis, because when cannabis became legal, whatever, in the recreation states of Colorado and Oregon and then everybody else started coming, that's like the Wright brothers taking off that kitty hawk.

24:03

Dave Almy

Yeah.

24:03

Marvin Washington

You know, so were still doing this. So now I think leaf oil is the twin engine. You know, we still got to get to the jet age or whatever. But this is progress. And it blew me away. And I said, I want to be a part of this. Not only do I want to be a part of this, but I want to take it to my network, I want to take it to the sports organizations, what have you, and just stick to the science that they have and the facts that they have. And I know I'm going to have some good conversations.

24:29

Dave Almy

So it's a perfect application for what you were trying to do. They sort of built some infrastructure to help support some of the outreach and connections that you were trying to make with athletes and other organizations around the country to help, to your point, keep the plane rolling down the Runway. Right?

24:47

Marvin Washington

Yes. Like I said, with the research and data that they have, with the medical doctors that they have, with the insurance companies that they're working with, that's just normalization. And it can go in paid for by your healthcare. It's just a healthcare enhanced benefit that anybody can use. And if they're using it in school districts, then why not? You know, because the whole thing, Dr. June told a story is like, how do you go into school districts and work with teachers? Well, they're using it anyway. And do you want a fifth grade math teacher taking an elbow and having a bad episode in front of the, in front of her classroom? Or do you want her to get it from a doctor and tells her how to prescribe it and when to use it and have no issue with it?

25:34

Marvin Washington

You know, this thing, cannabis is not going away. I think it's common, I think this country, I think the World is getting back to plant based things and I think Leafwell is going to have a lot to do with that. And I'm excited to be a part of this team. It's a wonderful team.

25:50

Dave Almy

And you talked earlier about the idea of scheduling and some of the listeners may not be as familiar with the idea of state versus federal, the current Schedule 1 versus Schedule 3 drugs at the federal level. So can you provide just a little bit of perspective on what your about the idea of scheduling for marijuana and cannabis and where you think things are headed at the federal level? You had mentioned you'd been to D.C. And had some of those conversations. Do you have any thinking or insights about where you feel like that's all headed?

26:26

Marvin Washington

Well, number one for your listeners, Schedule one is the classification where the DOJ and the FDA has put drugs that have no medical use or benefit like LSD and heroin. And cannabis is on there. And we can have another conversation why cannabis is on there. And it kind of like pisses me off actually. But there's been talk with the fda. They had a meeting last year in December about descheduling and bringing it down to Schedule 3, which would put it on like over the counter. And it can be prescribed and has a medical benefit. And in that way it takes off the lid of it being federally prohibited. I see it's going that way or just the scheduled period.

27:17

Marvin Washington

You know, this plant needs to be studied research and I think in 100 years they're going to look back to us and think were idiots. But with all the things that we're going to find out about this plant and the research that's going to go into it and all the money that's going to come into it's going to be phenomenal. And I think they're going to be medicating on plant based medicine instead of these opiate benzodiazepines that we've been killing ourselves with for the last 70, 80 years.

27:50

Dave Almy

There's a long list of things that people from 100 years from now are going to look back and go, what were they thinking? But certainly cannabis is going to be high on that list. Marvin, since you began your advocacy work, what's changed in the conversation? I mean, are you hopeful about the opportunities it has? I feel like we talked about like it feels like the pendulum is swinging. Talk a little bit about your vision for the future and any optimism that you may have about a positive outcome here.

28:24

Marvin Washington

s first going to conferences,: 2015

29:13

Marvin Washington

And so whenever I used to go talk or whatever, I used to be, you know, business casual or in a suit and talking about this plant. And I think we all right now we got 37 states, you know, we have a majority of the states and I think more are going to fall. And cannabis in the future is going to be a medicine that's going to be used by all generations, as it should be. I just, I'm so bullish on this plant and I know that, you know, I'm going to be looked at as back in the stone ages, what have you, but I'm just happy that I'm part of the normalization and bringing plant based medicine not only to athletes, but the country and society as a whole. And Leafwell is like the space shuttle to me, you know, to get us there.

30:08

Marvin Washington

We're going, we're going really fast. And the reception that I'm getting with Leafwell and the reception that I'm getting in general, it's all positive.

30:17

Dave Almy

I'm with Marvin Washington. He is a former NFL player and now cannabis advocate. Marvin, I feel like there are so many different directions this conversation could go. I feel like we need like volumes 4, 5 and 6 just to sort of encapsulate everything that could be talked about in this particular genre. But we only have a little bit of a limited amount of time because I want to make sure we're using your time effectively. But most importantly, Marvin, we needed to save time for the lightning round. Now, the lightning round, these are questions that, these are off topic. So I'm going to fire these questions at you and you're going to just give me the quickest answer that comes to your mind. Are you ready?

30:54

Marvin Washington

All right.

30:56

Dave Almy

afted by the New York jets in: 1989

31:21

Marvin Washington

Be yourself and run your own program and don't let any outside interference or influence get in your way of running your own program.

31:33

Dave Almy

The New York press, so fabulously taciturn when it comes to their football teams. You were an Idaho vandal.

31:40

Marvin Washington

Yes, sir.

31:41

Dave Almy

What was the most vandalizing thing you've ever done?

31:47

Marvin Washington

I can't say.

31:49

Dave Almy

Okay, taking.

31:52

Marvin Washington

I'd rather say. No comment on that.

31:55

Dave Almy

Okay. So clearly some good.

31:57

Marvin Washington

We had some vandals, we had some band.

32:00

Dave Almy

Let's just say. Okay, you lived up to the namesake. Okay, next question. What is your favorite cannabis recipe?

32:08

Marvin Washington

I have a friend that makes pretty good cannabis brownies. They're really good and they're gluten free and fat free. I'm not going to mention the company or what have you, but they're really good.

32:18

Dave Almy

All right, noted. So they're out there. Everybody will just have to taste test on their own. Last lightning round question. You somewhat famously sued US Attorney General Jeff Sessions in the Department of Justice over marijuana legalization. Pretty sure Jeff is a regular listener on the show. Anything you'd like to say to him at this point?

32:37

Marvin Washington

Nothing personal, dlj. He just happened to be the AG at the time. It's nothing personal, and it might have.

32:44

Dave Almy

Been a little personal.

32:46

Marvin Washington

We wanted to take this fight on and I think we made a lot of progress with that. And it got as far as the Supreme Court having to take a look at it and they decided not to. But it's the first time a federal district judge said that cannabis has medicinal benefits. And so that's part of, you know, the progress that that happened. And it's still happening to this day.

33:10

Dave Almy

Part of the record, Marvin Washington, really appreciate the time, David, thank you.